Misled Over Brexit ? Certainly Looks That way!

[Bread]

@Zaphod

Now you’re just squirming in the face of historical evidence, because you recall wrong then as usual.

Firstly because not a single MP was forced into agreement and secondly because time was given to allow scrutiny before the vote took place.
As you are I’m sure only too well aware, our MP’s could have voted against as some did but in greater numbers, or even voted to put back the vote.
They didn’t after some of the most vociferous sceptics studied the deal and pronounced it acceptable.

I’m not squirming about anything, that’s you trying to make yourself look convincing again by being condescending, arrogant and bigoted to everyone that disagrees with you. The TCA was a 1200 page document that was rammed through the HoC within 8 hours of debate. Rather odd don’t you think considering its been negotiated for nearly 5 years !

The choice was that (TCA) deal or “no deal” and the Conservative party who had a majority of 80 at the time were elected on a mandate of leaving with “a deal” in place with the EU. After scrutiny by all members including the ERG is was voted through even though it was widely acknowledged at the time as “far from being perfect” but it means “we leave the customs union, the single market and the ECJ”. Fishing and the Irish border were acknowledged as being issues even back then, by Mark Francois and the ERG, Bill Cash, John Redwood, Kate Hoey, Nigel Farage, Ben Habib and just about everyone else who voted to leave the EU back in 2016. Even the DUP voted against it because of Northern Ireland and there border farce - if the fishing community had a vote as well then this would have been a vote for no deal too, but of course, it was restricted to MP’s in Parliament to vote on it.

That ^^ is the historical evidence you seem to have difficulty in recalling.

[Donkeyman]

@Zaphod

No, the EU dictates the methods of both joining and leaving their club.

I will agree with how the EU is treating us.
As we have seen with Oz; the Swiss; Malaya and far more, the EU treats everybody not a member of their club as s-h-1-t.

Last but not least (and for the second time in recent posts) it is the UK’s MP’s that signed up to this by a majority, not two people in isolation.
By a huge 521 votes to 73 majority in fact.

If that’s so Zaphod, then it only reflects the ratio of remainers to
leavers in the Tory party! NOt the opinion of the electorate who have
effectively voted 3 times on this issue and now have been ignored
once again ??
Parliament refuses to conform to the election mandate and obey
the voters !!
Why did they bother to ask them what they wanted ??
If you deign to answer, one paragraph only please?

 Donkeyman!

[Zaphod]

@Bread

I’m not squirming about anything, that’s you trying to make yourself look convincing again by being condescending, arrogant and bigoted to everyone that disagrees with you. The TCA was a 1200 page document that was rammed through the HoC within 8 hours of debate. Rather odd don’t you think considering its been negotiate for nearly 5 years !

The choice was that (TCA) deal or “no deal” and the Conservative party who had a majority of 80 at the time were elected on a mandate of leaving with “a deal” in place with the EU. After scrutiny by all members including the ERG is was voted through even though it was widely acknowledged at the time as “far from being perfect” but it means “we leave the customs union, the single market and the ECJ”.

That ^^ is the historical evidence you seem to have difficulty in recalling.

Well done for saying pretty much what I said after my having to point it out to you as others can see too, proving my recall to be accurate too thank you.
Except to add that the 8 hours of debate followed days of scrutiny and that everybody by that stage knew what was coming, so why would you think it odd is baffling.
Is it because they didn’t delay voting, or because you personally just do not like the outcome?

If you’re going to display your ignorance so openly you deserve every bit of the so-called " condescension, arrogance and bigotry" that you get and much more besides, especially since you are the one starting such nastiness and getting posts removed as the result.
Fools like you don’t often like their rude awakening when confronted with the facts which they don’t like.

You’re urinating into the wind because it is mostly now history.
You might as well moan about how the Romans took their road-building skills with them when they left or whinge about how the Norman invasion changed our language for how much good it will do as you must surely realise from your attempts at trying to persuade MP’s etc. of the validity of your ideas regarding fishing.

Remember that the EU too are still deeply unhappy and that the deal has not been ratified by them.
Much could still change.
Even if it doesn’t to any meaningful degree, it wall take more than these past few months - even after years of squabbling and negotiation - to fully extricate ourselves from almost fifty years of insidious, creeping integration in an acceptable manner.

[Zaphod]

@Donkeyman

If that’s so Zaphod, then it only reflects the ratio of remainers to
leavers in the Tory party! NOt the opinion of the electorate who have
effectively voted 3 times on this issue and now have been ignored
once again ??
Parliament refuses to conform to the election mandate and obey
the voters !!
Why did they bother to ask them what they wanted ??
If you deign to answer, one paragraph only please?

 Donkeyman!  

Eh?
So in the world according to Donkeyman there were 521 remainers and only 73 leavers in total in the HoC at the time of the vote?

[Donkeyman]

@Zaphod

Eh?
So in the world according to Donkeyman there were 521 remainers and only 73 leavers in total in the HoC at the time of the vote?
https://emoticons.datahamster.com/rotfl4.gif

From what l saw Zaphod there were only about one dozen in the HOL
at the time ???
The others were only virtually there?
And yes , the the vast majority of parliament, HOL Included WAS
dear set against Brexit !!
And your assertion that the vote has occurred and we must get used
to it does not wash!
Just look back at the history of Brexit and Theresa May et al ??

Donkeyman!  .

[Zaphod]

@Donkeyman

From what l saw Zaphod there were only about one dozen in the HOL
at the time ???
The others were only virtually there?
And yes , the the vast majority of parliament, HOL Included WAS
dear set against Brexit !!
And your assertion that the vote has occurred and we must get used
to it does not wash!
Just look back at the history of Brexit and Theresa May et al ??

Donkeyman!  .

You’ve nailed your flag firmly to the mast there Donks.

You ignore Boris’s pogrom to remove remainers in mid-2019 & how that aided his election victory, and you ignore the still-rising popularity of Boris and of his party together with the facts behind why, and then you wonder why I (and from the looks of things a fair old bit of the country too) think you’re wrong?

[JBR]

@swimfeeders

Polite discussion and disagreement.

Very used to it, Bread and JBR will never agree with certain things with me.

Unless I’m very much mistaken, I have just been agreeing with you.

[swimfeeders]

@JBR

Unless I’m very much mistaken, I have just been agreeing with you.

Hi

Yep.

We agree on certain things, disagree on others.

We never get personal and I always respect your views.

I have changed my view on a number of things following your posts.

One thing we will never agree on is the death penalty.

[Bread]

@Zaphod

Well done for saying pretty much what I said after my having to point it out to you as others can see too, proving my recall to be accurate too thank you.

This is not true. You missed most of my points out, deliberately to try and make out there was a lot of thought and consideration into voting for the TCA. There wasn’t as I pointed out, correcting your version of history along the way.

Except to add that the 8 hours of debate followed days of scrutiny and that everybody by that stage knew what was coming, so why would you think it odd is baffling.
Is it because they didn’t delay voting, or because you personally just do not like the outcome?

They had about 5 working days to study a 1200 page legal document - I study documentation as part of my day job and believe me, even 100 pages can take weeks to decipher and interpret.

If you’re going to display your ignorance so openly you deserve every bit of the so-called " condescension, arrogance and bigotry" that you get and much more besides, especially since you are the one starting such nastiness and getting posts removed as the result.
Fools like you don’t often like their rude awakening when confronted with the facts which they don’t like.

If you knew what you were talking about, people that do, would agree with you. So far, nobody does.

You’re urinating into the wind because it is mostly now history.
You might as well moan about how the Romans took their road-building skills with them when they left or whinge about how the Norman invasion changed our language for how much good it will do as you must surely realise from your attempts at trying to persuade MP’s etc. of the validity of your ideas regarding fishing.

These aren’t ideas about fishing, these are facts, but you refuse to accept them because by doing so you would have to admit you are wrong - something you would never do. You never have and you never will.

So, you resort to calling over 12000 fishermen, the entire fishing industry and the population of every UK coastal town, “stupid” and “whingey whiners” who didn’t know what they voted for. I suggest you actually read what was promised to them at the time - you may realise that they were right and in fact, you’re wrong and its you who didn’t know what they voted for. When it comes to people like me, the FFL campaign and the rest of the community of the UK wanting to change our fisheries relationship with the EU, you mock them and call them names. This is your level in the Brexit debate, googling up other peoples opinions and then posting the opposite by mistake because of sloppy research, no originality and a lack of understanding of our current situation. You would be wise to understand first, post second.

Remember that the EU too are still deeply unhappy and that the deal has not been ratified by them.
Much could still change.
Even if it doesn’t to any meaningful degree, it wall take more than these past few months - even after years of squabbling and negotiation - to fully extricate ourselves from almost fifty years of insidious, creeping integration in an acceptable manner.

Sorting out the mess is easy, we just walk away and tear up the TCA … then we have 100% control over everything.

[Donkeyman]

@Zaphod

You’ve nailed your flag firmly to the mast there Donks.
https://emoticons.datahamster.com/hobby_horse.gif

You ignore Boris’s pogrom to remove remainers in mid-2019 & how that aided his election victory, and you ignore the still-rising popularity of Boris and of his party together with the facts behind why, and then you wonder why I (and from the looks of things a fair old bit of the country too) think you’re wrong?

I ignore Boris’sogrom Zaph because it was merely a promise to
not interfere with policy ??
Jesus, if he’d sacked all the remainers he’d have no members
left to work with!!
And we all know what politicians promises are like don’t we??
I have never denied his popularity, but l question his motives??
Why the sudden reversal in stance once he took over the TAC ??
WHY the sudden insertion of a 5•5 year extra transition after
allready having a previous transition not so long ago ??
I believe l have asked this question a couple of times before but
so far have not had any satisfactory answers ??

Donkeyman!

[JBR]

@Bread

Sorting out the mess is easy, we just walk away and tear up the TCA … then we have 100% control over everything.

That would be nice. Unfortunately, Boris is under pressure from all the remaining remoaners in his party.

Once again, it is down to us - the voters - to vote wisely.
If, as I am sure, the majority of people in this country are in favour of independence and sovereignty, the majority would vote for whomever(! different thread) standing in their constituency supports leaving the EU.

That might result in removing some of the Conservative party from the government, unfortunately, but as long as it resulted in replacing them with genuine supporters of leaving the EU the ‘impossible’ - parties working together for the good of the country - might just happen!

[JBR]

@Donkeyman

I ignore Boris’sogrom Zaph because it was merely a promise to
not interfere with policy ??
Jesus, if he’d sacked all the remainers he’d have no members
left to work with!!
And we all know what politicians promises are like don’t we??

Yes, as I have just agreed in my last. Is it worth the risk?

Of course, there’s always Reform UK. They could work productively with the ‘leavers’ in the Conservatives.

[Bread]

@JBR

That would be nice. Unfortunately, Boris is under pressure from all the remaining remoaners in his party.

Once again, it is down to us - the voters - to vote wisely.
If, as I am sure, the majority of people in this country are in favour of independence and sovereignty, the majority would vote for whomever(! different thread) standing in their constituency supports leaving the EU.

That might result in removing some of the Conservative party from the government, unfortunately, but as long as it resulted in replacing them with genuine supporters of leaving the EU the ‘impossible’ - parties working together for the good of the country - might just happen!

So much for every Conservative MP being elected on the basis that they backed the government and Brexit in the 2019 election.

[Zaphod]

@Donkeyman

I ignore Boris’sogrom Zaph because it was merely a promise to
not interfere with policy ??
Jesus, if he’d sacked all the remainers he’d have no members
left to work with!!
And we all know what politicians promises are like don’t we??
I have never denied his popularity, but l question his motives??
Why the sudden reversal in stance once he took over the TAC ??
WHY the sudden insertion of a 5•5 year extra transition after
allready having a previous transition not so long ago ??
I believe l have asked this question a couple of times before but
so far have not had any satisfactory answers ??

Donkeyman!  

That’s because you refuse to accept them and not because they haven’t been answered.
The answers you seek are in this thread and/or are in the public domain and I am not going to repeat them ad infinitum just for you.
Refusal to acknowledge their existence does not mean that they aren’t there.

[Zaphod]

@Bread

So much for every Conservative MP being elected on the basis that they backed the government and Brexit in the 2019 election.

The next General Election will prove how the public see their behaviour, not you or any other faceless keyboard warrior in an anonymous forum.

[Zaphod]

@JBR

Yes, as I have just agreed in my last. Is it worth the risk?

Of course, there’s always Reform UK. They could work productively with the ‘leavers’ in the Conservatives.

Of course there is.
That party of such huge potential that even Nigel Farage has decided it’s time to leave as it’s leader.

[Percy_Vere]

@Zaphod

Of course there is.
That party of such huge potential that even Nigel Farage has decided it’s time to leave as it’s leader.

Excellent point Zaphod. If Nige thought for just one minute the Reform Party stood even a minute chance of winning a seat or two, I’m sure he would have stayed on as leader. As it stands, IMHO, I don’t think they stand a snow ball in hell’s chance.

[Zaphod]

@Percy Vere

Excellent point Zaphod. If Nige thought for just one minute the Reform Party stood even a minute chance of winning a seat or two, I’m sure he would have stayed on as leader. As it stands, IMHO, I don’t think they stand a snow ball in hell’s chance.

Thank you Percy.

Sadly there was always going to be somebody somewhere who would be unhappy with Brexit, no matter what happened.
Most people are however both sensible enough and capable enough of rational thought to understand that as with everything throughout life it is about balance.

Although we are probably still far from a conclusion even if the EU do not ratify the deal, it really would appear that the majority are accepting of the current circumstances and of the outlook as far as that can be determined.

When even the most vehement of campaigners like Nigel Farage can see no benefit in continuing opposition with his remarkable history of ability to garner considerable support, you would think it time for others to either accept that truth or to risk being viewed as extremists.

[Mags]

***Please stop all the personal bickering, no-one is interested in it so keep it off the board please.

[Bread]

@Zaphod

Of course there is.
That party of such huge potential that even Nigel Farage has decided it’s time to leave as it’s leader.

Farage didn’t leave because of the potential of Reform UK though.