No I’m no nationalist. I’m patriotic but thats a world away from nationalism.
Euroscepticism îs growing in the UK and the EU - thanks to the behaviour of Von Der Leyen during the pandemic (breaking the GFA, breaking the NI protocol and evangelising vaccine nationalism) people have woken up to the vile nastiness of the unelected beurocrats that put themselves in charge. Go to the Netherlands and see the farmers protests and the 17 seats the BBB just gained in protest against the EU net zero policies that Rutte has put in place, look at Italy, voting in a right wing leader and look at France who are about to get Eurosceptic Marine Le Penn in power (her vote base has been growing year on year by the way). Not to mention what’s happening in Poland, Hungary and now Germany with the increase of eurosceptism there (and the building of coal fired power stations which breach the EU net zero rules).
You think the EU is the answer to every problem - you need to look at what is really happening not the ideological fanny thats portrayed through your EU Nationalist goggles.
And stop banging on about how trade is linked to geographical locations - your biggest trading partner is the USA then China which is considerably further away than the UK and neither of these countries have a trade deal with the EU.
The UK economy is doing better than the EU, and we have out performed it every year since we voted to leave in 2016. Trade with the EU and the UK is in decline as we are signing up with other trade deals which have far more to offer. We have more ratified trade deals than the EU anyway just go and look at the facts.
Finally, I’m not referring to people like you as “remoaners” I’m referring to you as EU Nationalists. At least get that bit right.
But what sort of Brexit? That was not defined in 2016, least of all by those promoting leave. Instead, they talked about Canada++ or “an even better agreement than we have now”. You might have voted to leave with no deal - you have no idea what others were thinking (and given the leave campaign message about a great future deal it seems unlikely there were that many in your camp). Then well after the referendum quite a few heard the rubbish negotiating threat by the government that they were prepared to walk away with no deal - and thought, “oh that’s good idea”. It was never a good idea. It was an empty negotiating ploy. Just because a minority thought it was serious, and were too ignorant to examine the consequences, does not retrospectively create a majority in the referendum.
So please do not pretend that you know for sure that each and every leave vote in 2016 was for a no deal exit. That is a pathetic and patently false claim.
You do you. I’m not going to change your mind and care not about your mindset. You can moan all you want but over the coming years there is zero chance of your beloved no deal separation coming into being. The EU will roll on and the UK will seek to get back into a grown up relationship, with freer trade, with them. That’s how it will unfold. And you know it.
I want a no deal Brexit. I don’t want and I don’t need a trade deal with the EU. Most countries don’t have a trade deal with them anyway.
In case you hadn’t realised, 98% of British businesses don’t export to the EU anyway, and of those that do the majority are services, which we regulate and don’t have tariffs. The trade we do have with the EU in goods would be subjected to a 6% tariff on the EU side and a 6% tariff on the UK side. The import tariffs in the UK can be absorbed easily enough through currency fluctuations.
You can talk about “grown up relationships” and all that as much as you like, I don’t buy in to socialist slurs but incase you hadn’t noticed, the EU needs the UK single market far more than the UK needs the EU’s, the trade balance proves it.
I’ll give the EU 5 years and it will be over. It’s pretty much over now, the member states are ignoring Brussels and doing their own thing, you can see it clearly in Germany, France, Italy, Poland and Hungary.
Who has the highest inflation - EU or UK
Answer = UK = 8.8% (EU=10%)
Who has the lowest unemployment - EU or UK
Answer = UK = 3.7% (EU=6.1%)
Who has the highest economic growth - EU or UK
Answer = UK = +0/3% (EU = -0.3%)
Your maths is awful. This false claim was bandied about so very often around the time of the referendum and in the lead up to the trade deal negotiations. It was plainly wrong and the world must have looked at the claim and thought “what chumps”. And that is the word for anyone who continues to make this claim.
If you want to be more accurate you might state:
The next imports from the EU to the UK are higher than UK’s exports to the EU. True. You then need to note that the UK’s exports to the EU are something like 43% of all UK exports (down from the pre-Brexit 48%). However the EU exports to the UK represent merely 13% of all EU exports. So the trade with the EU is worth more to the UK than vice versa. The UK needs the EU market far more than the EU needs the UK market.
There, that’s clearer now.
What else did you drone on about. Oh yes, the EU is on the verge of disintegration. You’d be wrong about that as well. Is there anything you get right?
The SNP are going to vote in favour of the Windsor Framework. That should tell you all you need to know about was a complete shambles this deal is by handing more control to Brussels from the UK.
Perfect timing as the guy who made Brexit happen (Boris Johnson) sits in a kangaroo court having his political career dismantled while the remoaners in parliament vote on the biggest act of vandalism to the union of the United Kingdom, our democracy and our freedom of self determination brought to them by their EU masters, Rich Sunak and Jeremy Cahunt.
Oh, I learned a new word “swerving”. Did not know that one.
If I was swerving, then it was not intentional.
The idea behind my point was: 200m voters are given the task to elect someone to lead “the EU”. Those “leaders” may be persons from one of the 27 member states. We probably agree, that most people do not even know the candidates of the other countries. I assume this because I do not know the candidates for Greece or Portugal or …
That is why I guess that every country would elect the candidates from their own country (which they know and whose language they speak). That would be tricky as far as proportional representation is concerned. It is impossible I am sure.
Compared to the US where there are effectively two candidates (speaking English and being from the same country), the task is way more easy. And yes, you are right, the US are managing this task (chosing one of two).
You have no idea why people voted the way they did, least of all me. You would like to think you do, because it suits your inferior opinion of the working classes and makes you feel superior…
Well for your information Strath, I didn’t listen to any of the hype from either side, instead I realised what being a member of the common market that morphed into the European Union, was from actually living through those years and seeing the UK turn into the dumping ground of the world and it’s industries run down and destroyed. Before you start defending the EU, I’m well aware that they are not the sole reason for the UK’s decline, but they have been instrumental, if our governments over the years were the bullets, the EU was the gun.
I don’t have issues with the French, German, Dutch or any other other member of the EU, I consider them good friends and long for the day that the working people of Europe will see how they have been fooled by the elite of the EU. I hate the EU and all it stands for, and I would continue to vote brexit every day of my life, whatever the cost.
It shows how undemocratic the EU is. At the last nomination of the EU leader, Von Der Leyen wasn’t even on the ballot.
Rutte was up for the top job, but it would be inconceivable for the Netherlands to dominate Germany, so, Rutte got sidelined and they were given Von Der Leyen to put things right.
But do you understand percentages? Your earlier post demonstrates that you equate second largest at 13% with by far the largest at 42%. You have a unique grasp of maths. This was the very mistake that so many tories failed to notice and went around saying they need us more than we need them. Which was patently not true. It was all so much twaddle back in 2016 and during the negotiations. Any grown up could see it was twaddle, which meant the EU negotiators could see it was all twaddle. The tory faithful and desperate leavers, liked the sound of it so much that they fell for it.
Back to the main point. You can moan all you like but the future years will see the UK move back closer to the EU and not your ill-thought through notion of moving further away. Keep moaning, no-one is listening.
So after much shouty language, here and in Westminster (but not Stormont as the DUP refuse to behave like a grown up party) the Windsor Framework sailed through parliament with a near unanimous vote in favour.
There were merely 22 votes against, and these from the usual anti-EU nutters (Bone, Cash, Chope, etc.) or by Johnson coat-tail riders (Rees-Mogg, Patel, Dorries, etc). There was also a bunch of no votes - it looks like tories who still think Johnson can return as PM so they want their fence sitting to look like decisive support, go figure (Shapps, Buckland, etc.). A dismal bunch of no’s and don’t knows who are now clearly out of touch with the nation’s mood.
Now perhaps we can move onto a different phase of Brexit where there is sensible, cooperative dialogue with the EU to find mutually beneficial ways of working together, and leave behind the Johnson era of always trying to demonstrate that everything is a ‘win’ against the EU, regardless of how it means losing out in the long run. About time too.
I understand maths very well thanks, and I also understand economics.
The USA is the biggest trading partner with the EU at around 18% of the share and the UK is the second biggest trading partner with around 13%. Using your argument, the USA is only a small market as well, just like the UK (actually <5% more than the UK) and certainly a lot less than the 35% if you include everyone else like you did earlier. So would you be quite happy getting rid of the USA ? I doubt it LOL, or how about China, they are about 3% less than the UK in terms of share. Get rid of them ?
Oh … there goes another one of your arguments LOL
You also seem obsessed with referring to your opinions as the ones that “grown ups have” and if you disagree with them “your not a grown up”. There is a very strong message in that paragraph your really not going to like but I’ll leave it to you to work it out.
Now we have people you refer to as anti-EU nutters because they didn’t vote or abstained but, once again you’ve completely missed the point
22 - No Vote (actually it was 29 but I’ll use your figures)
48 - Abstains (which is about the equivalent of 24 noes)
That means its 46 noes which means Sunak needs labour votes to get the WF through Parliament. That was the vote on the draft - the second vote should tear up the whole thing when parliament realise they are voting for Sunaks version which is completely different to the EU’s version. The same happened under Heath with regards fisheries (back in 73 because like Sunak the bill hadn’t gone through proper scrutiny and it was rushed through). I’m surprised the media hasn’t picked up on this morsel of history, but as they are all remainers (except GB News and Talk TV) I’m not surprised.
The only different phase of Brexit we need is the one where we actually leave. Without a trade deal and without being part of any EU treaties either.
I did like your point a few posts ago about the level of EU exports to the US, without any trade agreement. What is it that the EU is doing that the UK is failing to do? More, how come all you Brexit fans insisted that leaving the EU was necessary to grow exports to the US? Clearly is absolutely possible to successfully export to the US whilst being in the EU. The UK never needed to leave the EU to export to the US - the UK just needed to export better. Like the EU is so very successfully doing.
Anyway, those hard core Brexit days are behind us now. As are the child-like politics of Johnson and friends.
The USA is the biggest market for the UK too. Where we differ is that the UK trades mostly in services, thanks to the demise of UK industries (especially UK steel which the EU trades about the highest with) through EU funded grants and single market rule restrictions (such as state aid). You need to look at the bigger picture instead of cherry picking strap-lines from Remainerpedia.
Now we are out we can start to grow our manufacturing base again and have the state help fund growth, thats what is terrifying the EU right now and why the Windsor Framework has been agreed with the two unelected leaders of the UK and the EU. It prevents the UK from regulatory divergence from the single market (amongst other things).
How are the grown-ups getting on in France ? I heard the police and the fire brigade grown-ups have now joined with the grown-up people to oppose grown-up Macron ?
I wish your dreams of re-growing the UK were true but I’m not seeing it. Meantime, the pertinent point is that a country in the EU can successfully grow its exports outside the EU, even to the US. You have adequately demonstrated that.
But hey, I’m even going to agree with you - the demonstrations by a small group in France are purely a childish indulgence in reckless demonstrations. For me, it is very child-like behaviour as the people burning things are the very young people who would have to be taxed to pay for all the (relatively) early retirements. It will be, however, a flash in the pan as the legislation for pushing the retirement and pension age up to 64 is now complete. It’s a necessary change given the cost of pensions and care for the old - even with France’s very high social tax costs. But this thread is about the UK’s Windsor framework, not about France…
