You don’t challenge them though do you Muddy.
Rather than produce evidence you just call everybody you don’t agree with ‘Conspiracy Theorists’ and claim that the links Bread and me provide have been debunked and attack the poster rather than the post. You are fast becoming a troll Muddy with your constant accusations and bickering.
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No OGF I don’t call everyone conspiracy theorists just the ones who constantly promote far fetched pseudo scientific disinformation and disparage medical experts .
I challenge people who instead of making a reasoned discussion repeatedly insult me and call me a liar .
I don’t attack the poster I attack the posts have I ever called you a liar ?
I have always provided many supporting links please do not say that I do not the fact that the links that you and the other poster provide are easily debunked as proven by medical experts and genuine scientists not data crunchers .
Not to mention the flippant and IMO disrespectful way that dismiss deaths from the covid virus ,
But the one major stumbling point is when you and more so Bread starts with personal attack .
Personal attack is the sure sign of a weak and unconvincing argument.
Clearly you are ignorant of the meaning of what is an internet troll.
For your enlightenment I will give you a definition
: a person who intentionally antagonizes others online by posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments
You are fast becoming offensive OGF with your flippant comments of late .
@Muddy , l must disagree with your arguments Muddy as the WHOs own
figures prove that that the so called pandemic has had little or no influence
on world population figures with only •1 ?? % of deaths world wide caused by
covid !!
OK , plenty of people got covid but very few actually died from it!!
And a lot more never even knew they had had it ??
Surely this proves that covid was never a killer in its own right ?
All it did was polish off a few allready dying people a bit earlier than
they had hoped ? And they really were very few compared to the population !!
Donkeyman! 
I find your remarks callous in the extreme lots of people did and are still dying of it .
I know several people who have died of it .
My ex husband , his partner , and a good friend all unvaccinated and they died badly .
In January my neighbour died a man of 45 with two primary age children . Now all these people may have had some underlying health issues three were merely older people .
I am not interested in world population figures .
A small percentage of the world population still means huge numbers of people dying .
Everyone someone’s child brother sister or parent .
So based on your post Muddy (of which I’m sorry for your sad losses) we should not post any discussions about covid or the statistics, for fear of offending people who have been affected by the virus? In fact, perhaps we should not start any discussions of a sensitive nature for fear of offending the more emotional members, and stick to recipes and gardening topics. In fact, why don’t we just close the forum to prevent any further offence to anybody.
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This thread is threatening to get out of hand.
I’d enjoy posting in it except for the fact that everyone’s posts seem to get savaged and misinterpreted and twisted out of all resemblance to what was initially said.
It’s not the discussion that is offensive it’s the scathing way it’s being discussed .
Sensitive topics should be discussed with sensitivity
You have used the term ‘ emotional members ‘ well there is nothing wrong with emotions such as grief or sadness it’s shows a certain empathy which I must say has been lacking in some of the posts here .
Covid is not a mild illness it’s one that kills . It did n t kill you and you were lucky that’s all just lucky it could have quite easily gone the other way.
So disparaging statistics and making false premises that it didn’t kill many people is wrong .
Putting people off vaccines is wrong scorning precautions is wrong .
Any amount of personal attack won’t make it right .
The fact is OGF neither you or Bread like to be challenged
So as they say if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen .
Or perhaps stick to threads on running / cars / smutty jokes ?
Oh Donkeyman … I’d tend to agree with you on a few points, such the rate of births exceeded the deaths from covid, except I do feel sorry for anyone who had to suffer covid, never mind those who suffered bereavement.
My plumber’s father acts as his gopher and often accompanies his son to help out.
He must be about 60 to 70, perhaps already dying according to your criteria … he got covid last August and was in hospital till December and on a ventilator for 2 months.
I saw him a couple of weeks ago, now he’s back helping his son and though he’s clearly getting better he was a shadow of the man he was.
I had nothing but admiration for him for how he’s dragged himself back onto his feet.
You have to have sympathy for those who suffered from covid …which is why though I think it’s been a bit of a mess how the government handled it no way am I ever going to say covid was not serious or anyone who abided by the governments guidlelines was an alarmist…or worse, try and preach to them that it never really existed at all.
@Muddy , Not callous at all, l just can’t relate to everyone who dies !!
For instance, 166,000 people die of cancer in the UK every year !!
I don’t hear you mourning them ?
The deaths from covid over the two years since it started are192,000
which is roughly 100,000 yearly, so 60,000 less than for cancer !
And don’t forget there are other diseases as well that are killing people
as well ??
IMO all covid is doing is to push them off a bit quicker ! Probably mercifully ??
Donkeyman! 
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Well said that man… 
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Because donkey man you might have taken note that this is a thread about COVID not cancer or any other serious illness .
It’s called keeping on topic .
Blimey Muddy…That’s a whopper coming from you…
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This is a deliberate tactic in order to discombobulate the topic .
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I notice you have still not answered my question how to you know this figures are a very rough estimation or wildly inaccurate ?
You have alternative figures ?
Something the general public doesn’t know ?
Or should one assume that you haven’t got the foggiest idea but it sounds good,
More revelations today
Britain relied too much on ‘very scary’ SAGE models to decide on lockdowns, according to the man behind some of those very projections.
Just months after SAGE predicted 6,000 deaths per day and called for a Christmas lockdown in response to Omicron, Professor John Edmunds said the models were only supposed to be ‘one component’ of decision-making but were leaned on too much by ministers.
He accepted the models failed to account for the economic harm and the knock-on health effects that lockdowns caused.
One should assume that I do not take orders.
That answers that then , you haven’t the foggiest idea 
Same as you Muddy…
We have had all of this before, and my answer is this…(I suppose I should write this in my profile) All of my opinions and theories are my own, they have been formulated after 72 years of experience, bits here, and bits there, and far too many sources to document here. Some accurate and some some not, but mostly somewhere in the middle. You live in the same world as me Muddy, but your information will vary greatly from mine, therefore you will obviously arrive at different conclusions, and I respect that. But I couldn’t care less if people believe my posts or not, as I said earlier, they are my own opinions, thoughts and theories derived from the available info at the time, and my ability to interpret it. I reserve the right to change them at short notice.
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