IMO it wasn’t fearful
A fearful dog displays quite usual signs of being fearful .
This dog wanted her food bowl - she was surprised at first that her usual aggressive tactics had not worked but she didnt back down .
she could have turned away .
She had room to turn away but this was a dog well aware of her own strength of character.
The owners may have been morons but they were not cruel morons .
She had them exactly where she thought they should be - under her dominance
One would not allow a child to do this .
A teenager big enough to attack its parents .
This would not simply be allowed in most households
Yet so many excuses are made for bad behavior in dogs.
I dont know maybe they were TV freaks i doubt it no one surely wants the world to know they cant control their own dog ?
I never saw the husky video and this link doesn’t show it.
The owners brought it to Milan because they were inadequates and from other vids I have seen they had compounded the behaviour they were seeking to cure. Trust had been breached on both sides and they were now fearful of their own dog.
I disagree, Muddy - the dog had nowhere to go. Milan had that dog bullied and boxed into a corner - so much so that it was frozen and did not know what to do - it could not escape from the uncomfortable position. In that dog’s mind I believe it thought Milan would attack it if it moved. It did not know what to do and it was finally reacting in fear in an attempt to get out of the situation it had found itself.
I also have considerable experience with dogs and I realise there are many opinions out there about dogs and their management. My attitude towards dogs and their behaviour has worked - long term with all the dogs I have had. I have kept them most of my life and I am now approaching 70. I still keep a large dog and we have implicit trust in each other and that IMO is what is all about. As others have said there is not a one size fits all and it is up to the owner or the trainer to first gain the trust of any dog before they start trying to do anything with it training wise. Milan does not do that - he goes for the “quick fix” and IMO there is no such thing where animal behaviour modification is concerned.
I mentioned Shadow the Husky/Mal. and Milan on the other thread about dogs. He has removed all video evidence of that unfortunate incident, but people do not forget the cruel bodge he made trying to exert his dominance over the husky/mal. May I suggest you read the link and the links within it.
I agree the intial problem was probaby caused by the inadequate owners .
and as Cesar says he rehabilitates dogs and TRAINS people.
If Instead of Cesar confronting the dog a large dominant female dog ie an Akita or Husky had been introduced into the garden.
They would have trounced that dog in two ticks probably given her a good bite and taken possession of that feedbowl.
She had just not up to that time met anyone willing to confront her aggressive tendencies.
And like any bully with bad habits she didnt like it.
Trust is a two way street even with dogs .
The owners could not trust her as she had i fact bitten them on previous occasions .
The average domestic dog from an average family has no reason to distrust its owners.
There are always the odd ones and very often they are female dogs who become aggressive.
this was one .
Unless Cesar managed to rehabilitate her quickly her future didnt look so great because people have no pleasure and dont want a dog around that they cannot trust .
Possessiveness around food is a number one cause of bites and must be stopped AT ALL COSTS lest serious consequences occur.
There are other methods to help a dog that’s food aggressive.
The dog in my avatar, Rollie, was a rescue. He was slotted for euthanasia.
He came to us at 13 months old very, very, skinny and he was very food aggressive and was a resource guarder. (been kicked and who knows what else.)
It took me a long time and a lot of TLC to make him a happy dog again.
The last thing he needed was any more fear.
At meal times, I first sat with him and fed him his food by hand, constantly talking to him, and telling him he was doing real good. From there, I eventually put so much in his dish at a time. And then, when he was getting his whole meal at once, I would always swish my hand around in the food before he ate it. I still do that now and then.
I’m no expert, and I’m not saying my way is the right way, but I do know a dog without fear is a much happier dog. I know it takes time and patience to train any kind of aggression out of them. I know it can be done in a kind manner. And I know it can’t be done successfully in one TV show.
I just realized he looks chubby in my avatar! There’s lots of fur there!
He’re’s the fuller picture
I don’t disagree with everything you say Muddy, and as I was at pains to stress, trust is certainly a two way street - not just between dogs and animals. I certainly don’t think this dog was a bully, but it had learned (maybe through a perceived necessity) to take advantage of what was probably a long-standing situation. I agree it had probably got it’s own way too often over food, but I would put this down to owner mismanagement rather than any fault of the dog. All dogs (and people) are capable of aggression, when confronted with a given set of circumstances. Certainly two dogs between themselves (whatever the sex) generally work out a hierarchy - that’s natural and it doesn’t always involve much aggression or is governed by size.
If you noticed in the video Milan gave the food to the dog and it looked at him for permission as to what to do initially. It was unsure - getting no direction or encouragement from Milan. Having decided to start to eat the food Milan tried to remove it. The dog was set up IMO and I think Milan got it wrong. Personally I think it would have been better if Milan had kept hold of the food bowl, sat down with it and encouraged the dog to come to him by offering the food - then hand-feeding it with bits of food from the bowl. If successful he should have then kept his hand in the bowl and encouraged the dog to eat scooping up the food with his hand, etc. He should not have tried to arbitrarily remove the bowl - that was unfair.
The reason the link is not available about Shadow the Husky and Milan is because he has had it removed because of the flack he got - He stated it was for copyright issues, but really it was to save his embarrassment and the reaction he received from those who watched it.
If you are interested - it continued in what people wrote about the incident - here is another link. Please do not be so sure that Milan is the “bees knees” when it comes to dogs and their behaviour. If anything he is guilty of being a bully IMO.
Poor Holly some stranger puts her food down while occupying her space , her whole body language from the set of the ears to her eyes and how she holds her body shown ‘unease’ then she puts her head down to eat and at 18 seconds in CM thumps her in the chest and she backs off offereing appeasement gestures blinking, liplicking. head down avoiding eye contact and CM then presents her with the fist he used to punch her and she goes into fight response to defend herself. Even then her body language shows she is reluctant to defend herself but does so through fear.
What he has taught her is that she has a good reason to defend her food because there is a chance a human will take it and hit her while she eats . Appalling
Jackie like yourself and Julie I also used hand feeding and as part of the training of a resource guarding dog.
I also use other ways like scattering food, feeding in more than one bowl adding a little at a time so there is no ‘one place’ to guard and more.
My aim is to teach the dog I don’t want your food and it is safe to eat while people are around the exact opposite of what CM teaches Holly in the video.
I gradually progress to teaching ‘a leave’ with food by letting the dog sniff my clenched hand holding a low grade treat and rewarding for backing off with one of higher value. Also doing swaps with toys. A good leave is important in case the dog gets hold of somthing it shouldn’t eat and you need to remove it .
It all takes time, patience, consistency and kindness but it is rewarding isn’t it .
“Leave” is still used in this household! Dinty’s a see-something-must-put-in-mouth dog! He listens though. Mostly!
And yes, it is very, very rewarding.
Rollie’s 11 now, and he’s such a wonderful dog to have around.
We can take him anywhere and he behaves like a perfect gentleman.
Muddy aversion techniques may work but can cause all kind of problems because dogs associate previous sights/sounds/ smells with past experiences both negative and positive .
We have had people on Dogsey with rescue dogs who were fearful and aggressive around things as diverse as someone smoking to a using a broom.You can bet your life those dogs previously experienced fear in the presence of those things.
Back to using noise aversion and association with past experince. Amy my previous dog was not fearful of anything and suddenly began to look afraid when I went in my desk at home. I worked out it was the file boxes with a spring which upset her .
Amy used to go to work with me and sat in my office in a house full of girls .
I learnt from one girl that when I was out of the room some girls had been flicking rubber bands in their hands making a sound with them and even flicking them at Amy.
It suddenly clicked what had caused the problem, the sound the rubber bands made was similar to the one the spring on the file made and Amy associated the sound with fear and reacted accordingly when she encountered a similar sound .
So you see, using sound as an aversive can be counterproductive
It isn’t difficult to teach a dog not to jump up by rewarded it with attention only when it has four feet on the floor and getting people to bend down to speak to it so jumping up is not necessary.
No aversion needed.
I confess my dog is not well trained. We never had one before and when he was a cute teddy bear of a border terrier puppy I cuddled him and snuggled him and treated him like a human baby. He is not aggressive; he loves children; he has a strict feeding routine because of his diabetes, he takes his injections without flinching; but has fear aggression with other dogs - dark coloured ones. Hubby has to walk him because he won’t walk with me; he anchors up, sits on his bottom and refuses to budge because he wants hubby to walk him. He’s strong. Hubby is not well and this is becoming more of a problem. He’s nine now, still cute but I regret that he’s not properly trained. I can’t use click and treat because he is not allowed treats and has to go 12 hours between feeds with only water. He will sit, lie down, and has always been house trained.
Jackie Rollie looks like a big teddy bear He is lovely
Chloe is good ‘mostly’ I don’t expect perfection . What I do have is a very happy little dog who has never experienced fear at my hand although in spite of all my careful socialisation she is fear aggressive with some other dogs having been attacked as puppy .
You don’t have to use food as a reward most terriers have a prey drive and love squeaky toys. They can be used as the reward and as a form of distraction when meeting other dogs.
Unbelievably he ignores squeaky toys. The only thing he plays with is a round teething ring type chewer. I just paid his insurance and it was a hefty £480, mind you we have claimed back nearly two thousand pounds over the last two and a half years for his treatment for type one diabetes. He has home cooked food because the vet says it is best. I love him so much and the vet thinks we are doing great but it wears me out. My advice to potential dog owners - think carefully, get ‘life long condition’ insurance. Owning a dog does not come cheap. Thank you. I must try harder.
No this technique as you call it has never caused any problems whatsoever .
We are not talking Chihuahuas here but big powerful dogs that when they jump up at someone can knock someone over.
Again these are dogs that have not been trained otherwise when they were young when of course its easy to teach them correct behaviour.
The young pit bull i have just been fostering ignored squeaky toys completely . She was just not interested - many street/rescue dogs are not into toys - they have been too occupied trying to survive ,however she did play she liked ropes and balls . ( if you want to see her go on facebook and the Dominican Humane society where there is a video of her playing on my veranda)
Meg a tap on the floor with a plastic bottle cause no more fear than a clicker .
It is a signal to the dog which then learns that ( whatever action is undesirable) accompanied by down or no means.
Aerolor, I watched 3 of those videos, and found them ALL very disturbing. I felt a mixture of upset and anger.
Muddy, when I agreed earlier about some humans having a natural affinity with animals, I still believe that, but that has nothing to do with CM’s training methods. I don’t watch his videos and see any affinity at all I’m afraid. Just a man with on an ego trip.
I do not like it one bit how he continually likes to prove his ‘power’ over a frightened dog.
I do not like it one bit that he never gives a word of encouragement to a dog to let it know if it is doing right or wrong. Not a word of praise when the animal tries to please.
I did not like it one bit when that poor German Shepherd bitch in the 3rd video walked gently right by his side, even stopping when he stopped (without any command to do so), and yet still got a kick in the ribs. If I had been in the street and seen that I would have been pleased to kick him in the ribs too, preferably when he had done nothing wrong, same as the dog hadn’t. She sat well, she walked well, but never once got a “good girl” from him. They need to know when they are getting it right, same as they need to know when they are not. He doesn’t
help them to know. It is just dominance with him.
The 1st video, where the lab bit him, what did he achieve, did I miss something? The only thing I saw he achieved was a bitten hand. After he stared the dog into the corner for a 5 minutes or so, he buggered off. Did he consider his job finished then?
Going back to the GSD. When he was walking her back home with his own dog off lead, loping along behind him,
all over people’s front gardens, free to cock his leg up or crap on their lawns, was that a responsible bit of training too? His dog was a few yards behind him, he had no way of knowing what it was doing. It might have been humping someone’s bitch in season for all he could see.
I don’t wish to question your beliefs, its not my business, and we all have our own ways of doing things. But on this man, we’ll need to agree to disagree gal.
some stranger puts her food down while occupying her space , her whole body language from the set of the ears to her eyes and how she holds her body shown ‘unease’ then she puts her head down to eat and at 18 seconds in CM thumps her in the chest and she backs off offereing appeasement gestures blinking, liplicking. head down avoiding eye contact and CM then presents her with the fist he used to punch her and she goes into fight response to defend herself. Even then her body language shows she is reluctant to defend herself but does so through fear.
like yourself and Julie I also used hand feeding and as part of the training of a resource guarding dog.
.
He is lovely