And then what?
Is this (in my opinion friendly) proposal part of “punishing the UK for leaving” or is it more like “they need us more than we need them”?
Good idea to refuse the EUs proposal. It saves a lot of time and effort as futile negitiations will be avoided.
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Give it time - which confirms sovereignty was not a real issue in 2016, just some made up flag to get people all enthused about voting Brexit. Thanks for confirming that.
They didn’t mention all the countries… True. In 1975 there was no mention of the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1989. Now that was a cunning plot by Brussels was it not? (I have posted a few times about the need for the EU to embrace the central European countries and how this was the right and necessary decision. So no con here, just sensible actions.)
The Germans should kick the EU into the long grass … are you predicting this or (in fact) just making some empty musings. There is zero chance of Deutchexit happening. Nope, even EU doubting politicians in Europe have seen how the UK fared with Brexit and any doubts have been roundly removed.
But none of this matters as we are going to see a whole different dialogue and perspective on the UK / EU relations over the coming years.
It’s hard to guess which, is it not? It’s hard to see how something that would benefit the people of the UK is actually punishing the UK. And indeed it’s hard to see how such relatively small freedoms to reside and work in another country is based on the EU needing the UK so much. Which means it can only be a decent suggestion to remove irritating and limiting constraints on young people. Giving all European young people an opportunity that is currently limited only to people within the EU. That is, a positive and constructive suggestion.
Of course it may in fact be some other EU plot to deceive the plucky British - just one that the Mail / Express / Telegraph has not yet dreamt up. Perhaps its in the same style as the EU plot in 1975 to not tell the UK how in 14 years time the collapse of the Soviet Union would oblige opening up the EU to smaller and poorer nations in central Europe. It would have to be that cunning.
I think the trouble is that Europe has let in a great deal of immigrants from their ex empires. E.g. Portugal and Brazilians. They managed to access residency here as EU temporary or permanent residents. The issue is that the UK does not have proper systems in place, is not good at designing fit for purpose systems, does not want to pay for fit for purpose systems. So instead of having a system they just say no to everything. I think Britain is quite happy with the old French or German etc exchanges that used to take place, but the system would be totally abused by non French non German residents from around the world who would get around the rules.
Until they figure out how to fix that I can’t see what they can really do. It’s a mess because no government is interested in setting up fit for purpose systems to monitor and control migration. They really need to sort out ID cards but even that would not stop abuse. Other countries do very well at this sort of thing, but we have decades of mess and a vast layer of hidden undocumented migrants. Nobody wants to touch that politically or financially. The political fallout of trying to mess with that hornets nest is not worth the pain vs the less painful problem of dealing with complaints from voters.
So you make many valid points. But I’d like to clarify that if someone comes into one EU country from anywhere, an ex-colony or not, and are granted citizenship - then they are French or German or Spanish by law. So it would be perfectly reasonable to grant access to the UK under such a freedom of work/study scheme. Because they are of the nationality of the country they left to go to the UK.
But I absolutely agree with your comment about UK ID cards. Long overdue. In European countries the card that confirms a right of residency is a very effective ID card. Although I’ve met Brits who think their residency card is a travel card for travelling through Europe…
I guess I see Europe as a group of peoples who have common ground. Germany for instance 1/2 the size of Texas but over 2X the population, England, Scotland, France, the Netherlands etc. All need each other. Common needs of all Europeans. Sure Eastern Europe has other problems also but still they seem
attracted to the West more so than not? World trade being what it is most likely becoming more difficult at time passes. Most likely Block trading will become. The world map is becoming very strange, China Sea, Africa, South America then Australia, Japan, USA, Canada, England. Then Russia, NK some eastern Europe. Middle east, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria trying to control the Eastern Med. Indian Ocean, India, Some of the touchiest places on Earth. So many Screw ups!
My suggestion was not ment very seriously I have to admit. I can imagine that UKs tabloid will present headlines suggesting that now (after the EUs proposal) it becomes obvious that “they need us more”.
On the other hand the EUs proposal contradicts the idea that the EU is “punishing” the UK for leaving.
For me as just an interested observer from the continent it remains interesting to find out, why both Sunak and Starmer reject the idea. I have to admit that those reactions are unexpected for me and I would like to know the real reasons for their refusal.
Yes and that is the problem, that people from all over the world for whatever reason were becoming EU citizens by law and then using that to come and live in the UK.
At the same time they will not suddenly renounce their original country and culture, perhaps they won’t even speak English. You can say that’s great but too much of a good thing puts severe strain on any society.
The Government wants to cherry pick. In the meantime they do nothing because that’s so much easier.
It must be difficult to admit (in public) but it seems always to be about not wanting to have foreigners. I have heard a lot of interviews with politicians and even more often callers in radio shows in the UK complaining about foreigners. Could it be the reason for Brexit that it is about xenophobia?
I honestly admit that I sometimes have difficulties to decide wether I feel like being in Kabul, Istanbul or Thereran when I reach certain areas here in Germany. Even in my home town. It is difficult for me to accept that cultural change. Please do not get me wrong, the change of culture happens very slowly but it is there. I fully understand when someone is not prepared or ready for that change.
However I think that it might be important to admit that.
The other day a young couple with a lil baby walked past me up my street. I asked Spanish? They responded no Turkey. Most likely well-paying jobs, living in a + $300,000 home Just down the street
from mine. Didn’t know they were there. I said, “Welcome to the neighborhood.” They were very nice.
We chatted a bit and said, "have a great day. " They laughed. I would guess they love the USA. Everywhere I travel in the 100 mile radi-circle around here I meet foreign speaking people, just off the Jet.
I can easily hazzard a guess of well over 100,000 population. Many start their own small businesses.
There were so many mt building left by the Covids.
I was not aware that this was a big number and a major issue. It was clear, pre-2021, that there were many Polish in the UK and increasing numbers of Romanians. Plus lots of French and Spanish. But non-EU natives (say Turkish or Syrian) who got citizenship of say Germany? What sort of numbers used that new citizenship to move to the UK?
I’d also note that the rules on EU free movement are pretty strict - if the host country wishes to apply them. So must pay tax, must have full medical insurance until gaining access to the host country state system, must have funds or a job, can’t immediately claim benefits, etc. The very lax UK application of these conditions is not the fault of the EU’s freedom of movement policy.
It is a fault of the EU, being a member of the EU has made us a lazy nation…
Well then explain how that comes about? Are you saying that the UK decided that because of the opportunities and benefits of being in the EU there was no need to verify that someone from another country could/would pay before giving them expensive hospital treatment? You funny guy.
If we are a lazy nation, we only have ourselves to blame OGF. I think this attitude goes back to the Empire days. Feet up and the money rolling in. etc.
Taking just two groups as an example :
I’m not sure of the situation now, but back when we were interrailing in the mid to late 80s, Vienna had a great many resident Turks. I’m not sure of the links - the Ottoman Empire? There are now estimated to be 500k Turks living in the UK. Back in 2001 the census records this as approx only 54k.
In the 80s there were about 7-8k of Brazillians living in the UK. Now it’s estimated to be 220k. Brazilians who can prove that they have one or both granparents/parents of Portuguese heritage can gain Portuguese citizenship.
You don’t think the astonishing increase in both these populations in the last 20 years has any connection to the EU free movement policy during that time?
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This page only partly supports your theory about Turkish in the UK.
It specifically states " Recently, smaller groups of Turks have begun to immigrate to the United Kingdom from other European countries". Most people cited at Turkish seem to be Turkish Cypriot rather than Turkish via citizenship in a EU country. So the alarmist 50k to 500k jump in numbers does not seem to be down to 450,000 Turks sneaking into the UK after gaining citizenship in some other EU country.
A similar wiki page about Brazilians provides no information or comments about the route Brazilians took to coming to the UK.
It does note the wide discrepancy between the official census numbers of Brazilians (about 90,000) and the estimates of actually how many live in the UK (as you cite, 220k). Now, why would someone who got to the UK legally, using a EU country passport, not openly state what their birth country was? The wiki page notes that the discrepancy could by due to people overstaying their visa (so not EU passport holders) or only staying temporarily. This does not support your theory about mass migration via Portuguese citizenship.
In answer to your question - looking behind the headline numbers you provided - no, I cannot see an astonishing leveraging of EU freedom of movement.
Because they did not complete the census as they were living in rented accommodation where the landlord did not offer them the census as it is per property rather than per person?
Census data is known to be hugely understated. It’s unfortunate that it’s used to plan and fund services.
These may be people who had temporary residency in the EU which meant that they did not require a visa to come here. So they came from countries which had some sort of link to their host EU countries, as we have with commonwealth nations etc.
My point is that EU free movement was not just a facility for EU nationals born in the EU, ethnically and culturally “European” but for people around the world who managed to gain some form of EU residency having entered a host nation. Those people could then come to the UK if we offer universal free movement of young people as proposed. They could be from anywhere in the world.
We already have a massive problem with people who come here legally and outstay their visas. Despite all the talk, despite Brexit, little has been achieved to reduce the inward flow of nationals from outside the EU. As mentioned they do not end up in Census data which is used to fund services. It’s a real mess because the government are using punitive measures to try to deter people, but they are not ready for the ensuing chaos when such measures are put in place. We don’t have the policing and control and support systems in place to deal with that chaos. So police time and money is being deflected to managed that mess rather than fight crime.
As Brexit was a complaint by many voters against mass immigration of people entering via the EU free movement route, the Government has it’s back against the wall on this issue. There is nothing to stop this being a new option for economic refugees crossing in boats. I’m sure some EU nations would ensure they obtained the right papers if it meant that they could come to Britain.
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Hey, I’m not saying there was never anyone who got to live in the UK by taking advantage of gaining citizenship somewhere else in the EU. I am saying that your claims of hundreds of thousands from certain countries using this route is not supported by the information. Your example of Turkish nationals is particularly misleading as 350,000 are Cypriots from the Turkish side of Cyprus. As this is fully in the EU this is immigration of native born of an EU country. So your claim is simply wrong in this example because you did not check the data behind the headline number.
And as for your empty and unjustified claim that “I’m sure some EU nations would ensure they obtained the right papers”. Please, cite some reference for this claim or just tag it as “personal prejudice view based on no information whatsoever”.
What is to stop Turkish nationals from Turkey moving to Turkish Cyprus in order to gain access to EU countries?
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