I think it’s a load of rubbish that the virus spreads from inanimate object Zaphod, if it did, every man woman and child in the UK would have been infected by now. If the virus has been deposited on packaging etc, it would require you to collect it on your hands and somehow push it up your nose…Not likely…
The main spread of the virus is airborne, and in still air conditions (indoors) where it can hang in the air for an unlimited amount of time. Smell someone’s perfume or aftershave long after that person has moved on…I believe like that perfume, the virus is still there also.
You obviously are not aware of just how many people travel each day by air Zaphod. And regardless what anyone says, aircon on planes are the worst thing for spreading viruses and bacteria. The planes are packed like sardines, so imagine 300 people exiting a plane and entering a crowded airport…The mind boggles, and just air passengers alone could have (and probably were) almost totally responsible for the transmission of covid. And a crowded airport would spread the virus to the four corners of the world…And did in my opinion.
And those poor Chinese workers would have had their air fares paid by the company…Like so many other workers moving too and fro across the world…foot passengers traveling by car, bus ferry, lorry, don’t actually come into contact with a fraction of people that air passengers do. We shouldn’t actually be arguing the point, whoever is right can’t disagree that air travel is just one great big covid leaking bucket and should have been stopped immediately we realised how bad it was going to be.
Look at the number of flights actually happening now (8:45 pm on this Wednesday evening) on this flight tracker…Now tell me covid isn’t getting spread to the four corners of the world… And look where the most traffic is…America…?
Click on the thumbnail in the bottom corner for a better view…
You’re just as entitled to your thoughts as anybody else is OGF.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing about the main cause of spread, but research shows that the virus clings to surfaces and poses a risk.
That’s why washing packaging is recommended along with washing your hands after touching things.
It’s why supermarkets have cleaning stations for trolleys too.
(I won’t go into detail about how this sort of infection happens here but there’s plenty info. online.)
Oh and another few things?
If masks prevent so much then why is infection still raging, increasing even in countries that insist upon proper protection (PPF2 +) like France?
If as you believe the virus survives for such a long time as an aerosol then equally by now every person in the UK would have been infected too, surely?
Yes I am, ta muchly.
Are you not aware that orders of magnitude more people travel by other means?
The huge number of infections we’ve seen in the UK (as in other countries) are certainly not all caused by people travelling by air.
Aircon is indeed not good.
And yes air travel has certainly played a large part in the global spread of Covid-19 but it is not the only way infection is spread.
You’re making assumptions, not relying upon fact.
Globally, most people crossing international borders do so by methods other than air travel.
Travel by air has seen huge reductions in travellers globally during the pandemic.
Shipping too is a huge threat, or have the episodes of infection on cruise ships been forgotten together with the reasons of how infection spread so quickly onboard?
Again, the huge number of Covid-19 infections globally are certainly not the result of each infected person using air transport.
Air transport can transport things including this virus faster than other methods but it is not the only method.
Here are some facts regarding the UK:
January this year saw 1.4 million passengers in total use UK airports both ways, including internal flights and those on onward-bound flights. *1
Between 5000 and 6000 trucks per day use Dover & the Eurotunnel alone (*2) which equates to say 165,000 trucks per month.
There are other busy UK ports too.
The UK Ports Industry said in 2019 that each year it handles “over 60 million international and domestic passenger journeys.” (*3) That’s half a million per month, give or take.
It makes no sense to assume that those arriving by plane might be infected but those arriving by other means aren’t, and looking at the numbers (when you can find them because it’s not easy) I’m sure you must see that such large numbers will involve a significant risk of cross-infection.
Again yes certainly infection in air passengers is likely to be a major factor but it is not the only way infection is spread.
Until more research is done (like our genome sequencing-aided research showing where the UK’s infections initially came from) nobody can be certain about why some are infected & not others; why some people show symptoms once infected and others do not; or every possibility of how the infection is transmitted.
You’re entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine, but I hope that the above explains why I differ from your stance.
And again I ask why if facial coverings and restrictions supposedly prevent cross-infection are countries seeing significant rises in infection rates with these restrictions in place?
*2 Were there hold-ups in first week after Brexit? - BBC News
Once again we are chewing the same old bone Zaphod!!
Most of your argument consists of the secondary spreading of covid?
Whereas the original debate was about how and where covid
originated and how it initially spread?
I think we have all accepted WHERE it started ?? Haven’t we?
So that leaves just the how it spread to argue the toss over doesn’t
it??
I contend that air travel was the cause ?
I backed this up with the THE FACT that covid has an incubation period of about two weeks ?
This incubation period discounts all the many forms of transport
that you quote as the travel time using these methods is longer than
the incubation period which means that the virus would be either
evident, or have died BEFORE arriving at its destination??
The only form of transport that has a shorter travel time than covid
incubation period is AIR TRAVEL !!!
I have posted all this in earlier posts, so l hope you finally understand
my reasoning??
Every thing you have said so far is STILL after the fact although
It , has become the main way covid spreads now untill flying
resumes again l suppose??
Donkeyman!
Wasn’t it the cruise ship Diamond Princess that that spread the virus through 700 people which brought it to our notice, DM? 
A small, but pertinent, hijack regarding aircraft and aircon. When smoking was banned on board all flights, it gave the airlines a chance to save money by reducing the number of complete air changes from 7/hr to 4/hr. I lost count of the number of sore throats, coughs and sneezes I caught after the ban that I didn’t seem to get from before it. It seems to me that reducing the number of air changes on board an aircraft will also increase the risk of catching something like Covid if someone else on board the same flight already has it.
In an attempt to continue in a polite manner so that this - unlike other exchanges between us - does not become increasingly acrimonious I must nonetheless point out that you’re backpedalling on what you said earlier - when it’s still here for all to see too, but I will quote you as well.
You said:
“What other way could covid have travelled to Europe in less than two weeks from China ??”
Post # 35 in this very thread.
You can be as miffed as you want that I’ve provided a reasonable answer, but it doesn’t alter the facts.
Just like you seemingly ignoring where I say that I agree that air travel might well have been a major initial cause of global spread, but that’s (again) not what you asked and hence not what I answered.
You asked in what other ways could this disease have travelled?
So I have answered and you might not like it, but it still an answer and a reasonable one too.
The timescale you give is extremely questionable (two weeks according to who?) and just how did it travel?
By carrier, in this case I already agreed probably people but not conclusively as research and advice suggests other possibilities including that the virus retains the possibility to infect when on other things.
People travel by sea, by rail and by car, bus and even donkey as well as on foot you know - even over longer distances.
Other things move about the world which can also be infected, both inanimate and live; do your own research but it is accepted that various animals can catch this virus.
Research into transmission from other than person-to-person is uncertain but see my questions below as well as this link:
You can try and move goalposts by re-imagining what you think you said if you want but given I’ve posted it and it’s in black & white earlier in this thread, good luck with that.
Meantime here are two things for you to consider:
1 The virus wasn’t discovered on an aircraft. It had to infect many people before it reached the stage of transmission using such a method of transport - and that increase in rates of infection certainly was not solely on aircraft.
So where did it come from and when?
2 Covid might travel faster by transporting a carrier by air but that doesn’t mean that an infected person can’t travel and infect using other means of travel like by rail for example, or on something rather than in someone.
There is still far too much which is neither fully known or understood about this virus and how it infects people.
“The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces, or objects, such as tables, doorknobs and handrails. Other people may become infected by touching these contaminated surfaces, then touching their eyes, noses or mouths without having cleaned their hands first.”
Did you know that China to London by rail takes 18 days?
So between China & other European cities will certainly be less - and trains need drivers and guards even if they’re freight rather than passenger.
Okay it’s not as fast as an airplane but think of the possibilities of cross-infection for just one of the staff on these, given what is now accepted regarding “superspreaders”.
Now I have no problem at all with reasonable, sensible and intelligent debate.
If you want a further response and especially one which remains even and considered I’m sure you will be able to answer the following two questions in bold if you are serious about any of your “reasoning” and please, try (as I do) to use research and fact rather than your own supposition or anecdotal supposed evidence.
I refer you yet again to these big questions which I posed before:
If infection is so predominantly person-to-person and supposedly masks prevent so much contamination, then why is infection still raging and increasing even in countries that insist upon proper protection (PPF2 +) like France?
If infection is predominantly person-to-person why the advice to handle packaging as infrequently as possible; to wash packaging bought into the home; to wash hands so frequently; and why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen?
The rising infection rates in France despite compulsory mask-wearing of FFP2 masks or better and curfews from 7pm (was 6pm until March 20th).
Covid: France and Poland increase lockdown measures as infections surge - BBC News
“New supermarket Covid warning – Only pick up items you need and wipe down your shopping when you get home”
Yes, that contributed Mags, and was supplemented by two or three
" emergency evacuations by air !!
I believe the sailing time for the diamond princess is shorter than
than the incubation period of covid, plus some of the princess
passengers had allready fallen ill with covid ??
Donkeyman!
OMG!
I will just address one question you asked Zaphod Concerning the
train journey from China to Europe??
Give me evidence of the numbers of passengers that have made
the journey FROM China to Europe in the last year?
More specifically in the period in the first two months since covid
was detected??
I will ignore the rest of your post in the interests of saving myself
having to suffer your snide remarks !!
Donkeyman!
Read my post again please.
When you have answered my questions I will, as I explain very clearly in that post, give yours consideration and not before because you are already turning the tone of these posts towards acrimony as I said you would with the “your snide remarks” comment which is of course in itself a snide remark.
I can wait.
You will have to !
Donkeyman!
I’m not going to get into battle of links and some journalists opinion, I must point out that I generally enjoy and agree with your posts Zaphod…;-)…However…
My take on the situation based on the knowledge I have gleaned over the course of the covid pandemic…
The aeroplanes are the conduit…Carrying the virus to the four corners of the planet…
Airports are the distribution, spreading the disease to passengers who are flying to various destinations…
And the Towns and Cities are the nurseries where covid is cultivated…
A good point Mags, however, 3000 passengers and crew were not infected, just the 700 mentioned, so I don’t think it is all that easy to pass it on. I have posted many times that covid is an airborne virus, and will remain for several minutes after an infected person has left the area in an indoor situation. I don’t believe it can be spread outdoors unless you become unusually close to an infected person. This was borne out from the Diamond Princess monitoring.
What we haven’t heard about much are the hundreds of cruise ships that due to the various captains swift actions managed to stay virus free. One such ship (an Italian vessel that I read about at the start of the pandemic) only picked up supplies at the odd port, and passengers and crew were forbidden to disembark. It remained at sea through the worst of the pandemic, long after it should have concluded it’s journey, and because it was a closed ship, nobody caught the virus and the captain was hailed a hero by the passengers.
Yes l remember that?
I believe it moored somewhere off the American West coast till
It was deemed safe to disembark OGF ?
Donkeyman!!
I think you’re missing that I wasn’t disagreeing with you but rather answering a question OGF.
The virus has to multiply before it can be carried anywhere and it is widely thought that by the time it has crossed borders it is already too late to do much to prevent an increase.
Again I will ask these questions that so far nobody has commented upon, much less answered:
If infection is so predominantly person-to-person and supposedly masks prevent so much contamination, then why is infection still raging and increasing even in countries that insist upon proper protection (PPF2 +) like France?
If infection is predominantly person-to-person why the advice to handle packaging as infrequently as possible; to wash packaging bought into the home; to wash hands so frequently; and why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen?
How do you think any leader in a Western democracy could get such draconian measures as would be necessary to prevent infection accepted in the face of what then just looked like a few isolated cases of an infection that hadn’t yet then affected any of our own people?
Our own parliament even now disagrees about current restrictions, hence last nights’ vote.
Zaphod;2061998]I think you’re missing that I wasn’t disagreeing with you but rather answering a question OGF.
Apologies Zaphod…I will try and answer the questions, but the answers are only my own opinion (other opinions are available) based on interpreted information from:-
(a) The forum
(b) The Internet (Wiki mainly)…
(c) The Main Stream Media (mainly the BBC)
(d) And twitter…
Questions in Bold…Answers in standard text…
The virus has to multiply before it can be carried anywhere and it is widely thought that by the time it has crossed borders it is already too late to do much to prevent an increase.
The time when the virus is at its most infectious is before any symptoms appear apparently. This would point overwhelmingly to air travel…Especially the airports where people were mixing in close quarters, indoors, and then flying off to various destinations around the world.
[B]Again I will ask these questions that so far nobody has commented upon, much less answered:
If infection is so predominantly person-to-person and supposedly masks prevent so much contamination, then why is infection still raging and increasing even in countries that insist upon proper protection (PPF2 +) like France?[/B]
Because a lot of the things you hear on the news are there for our benefit, and I think you will find that most people in other countries (including this one) the young people do not wear masks, and apparently most of the recent outbreaks are young and working age people, hence the lack of deaths but still new infections in the thousands on a daily basis still occurring in the UK.
If infection is predominantly person-to-person why the advice to handle packaging as infrequently as possible; to wash packaging bought into the home; to wash hands so frequently; and why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen?
The chances of catching a virus from packaging is very remote. It has to be handled by an infected person, who will have had to wear gloves or hand sanitise before work, it has to survive for several days of transportation and languishing on a supermarket shelf (fresh stuff probably less time) removing the packaging and then inserting fingers up the nose…It is possible, but unlikely. Trolley handles should always be disinfected, and not just for covid…The last person to have used the trolley could have been infected, so washing hands should be imperative at the earliest opportunity.
How do you think any leader in a Western democracy could get such draconian measures as would be necessary to prevend infection accepted in the face of what then just looked like a few isolated cases of an infection that hadn’t yet then affected any of our own people?
Our own parliament even now disagrees about current restrictions, hence last nights’ vote.
I suspect a bit of ‘Knee jerk reaction’ going on there Zaphod, and it’s making the politicians run around like headless chickens…They are buggered if they do…and buggered if they don’t…It takes a big man to shut down the economy of a successful country like the UK, especially since most of the stuff we use comes from elsewhere, and the people need to know that this is urgent and a national emergency (which it is) so a bit of overkill by the BBC to whip people up into a blind panic and instil fear into the old until we accept anything that they tell us, and end up begging them for the silver bullet that is the vaccine…The Oxford Zeneca vaccine has turned into a 21st century Winston Churchill, A Spitfire that won the war, an Alan Turing invention that decodes the genome sequence of covid…The saviour of the British…Woe betide anyone who dares to question the vaccine.
No apologies needed between friends OGF.
Says he, about to apologize for not including your entire response - but in my defense I was only trying to save space and stop the forum becoming clogged.
:hug:
The first re: air travel I keep saying I agree with, at least as a primary source of transmission and I see no point in revisiting that.
Now to the questions & answers, as briefly as possible:
Infection numbers are stable as is natural when schools returned and more people started being tested - as in all schoolchildren in this instance here in the UK.
Seek and ye shall find, as the old adage goes.
It will take time to see this number decrease because (as with my own son) isolation gradually will reduce the numbers of infected who show no symptoms.
There is no “lack of deaths” elsewhere, it is increasing.
In France for example which has had curfews in place for months as well as compulsory effective face coverings, both infections and deaths are still rising.
Still most infections and deaths are among the elderly.
The chance of contimanation from surfaces might be remote - but it exists, which is why the measures you talk about are in place.
In other words it is still possible.
The last part I agree with; no matter what any government would do it would face objections.
And that was the point I wanted to make: it was impossible to prevent the spread of this virus because by the time our government (or any other) could get the measures it needed to prevent infection entering the country and spreading agreed by parliaments and implemented it would already be too late.
So we’re not really so far apart on our thinking, judging by that.
Some minor technical disagreement mabe but in broad terms our opinions seem quite similar and there’s certainly no major disagreements I can see which need apology from either of us.
What it boils down to is that it’s a bladdy nasty virus that it was always going to be almost impossible to prevent from wreaking havoc on a global scale, ourselves included.
Chopped down to save space.
Wash packaging bought into the home - We have NEVER done that and don’t intend to start now.
Wash hands frequently - We are forever washing our hands in any case so what’s one or two more times extra a day difference going to make?
Why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen - Our local M&S supermarket does it for us so I don’t even bother wearing rubber gloves any more. As for Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, I use their facilities to sanitise the trolley handles and my hands before entering the stores.
WELL DONE OGF!!
How did you do it??
Seems we have an agreement! I think?
Donkeyman!
PS. now what was the OP ???