The death rate has fallen below the 5yr national average for the first time since the start of the pandemic

A good point Mags, however, 3000 passengers and crew were not infected, just the 700 mentioned, so I don’t think it is all that easy to pass it on. I have posted many times that covid is an airborne virus, and will remain for several minutes after an infected person has left the area in an indoor situation. I don’t believe it can be spread outdoors unless you become unusually close to an infected person. This was borne out from the Diamond Princess monitoring.

What we haven’t heard about much are the hundreds of cruise ships that due to the various captains swift actions managed to stay virus free. One such ship (an Italian vessel that I read about at the start of the pandemic) only picked up supplies at the odd port, and passengers and crew were forbidden to disembark. It remained at sea through the worst of the pandemic, long after it should have concluded it’s journey, and because it was a closed ship, nobody caught the virus and the captain was hailed a hero by the passengers.

Yes l remember that?
I believe it moored somewhere off the American West coast till
It was deemed safe to disembark OGF ?

Donkeyman!!

I think you’re missing that I wasn’t disagreeing with you but rather answering a question OGF.

The virus has to multiply before it can be carried anywhere and it is widely thought that by the time it has crossed borders it is already too late to do much to prevent an increase.

Again I will ask these questions that so far nobody has commented upon, much less answered:

If infection is so predominantly person-to-person and supposedly masks prevent so much contamination, then why is infection still raging and increasing even in countries that insist upon proper protection (PPF2 +) like France?

If infection is predominantly person-to-person why the advice to handle packaging as infrequently as possible; to wash packaging bought into the home; to wash hands so frequently; and why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen?

How do you think any leader in a Western democracy could get such draconian measures as would be necessary to prevent infection accepted in the face of what then just looked like a few isolated cases of an infection that hadn’t yet then affected any of our own people?
Our own parliament even now disagrees about current restrictions, hence last nights’ vote.

Zaphod;2061998]I think you’re missing that I wasn’t disagreeing with you but rather answering a question OGF.

Apologies Zaphod…I will try and answer the questions, but the answers are only my own opinion (other opinions are available) based on interpreted information from:-
(a) The forum
(b) The Internet (Wiki mainly)…:wink:
(c) The Main Stream Media (mainly the BBC)
(d) And twitter…:cool:

Questions in Bold…Answers in standard text…

The virus has to multiply before it can be carried anywhere and it is widely thought that by the time it has crossed borders it is already too late to do much to prevent an increase.

The time when the virus is at its most infectious is before any symptoms appear apparently. This would point overwhelmingly to air travel…Especially the airports where people were mixing in close quarters, indoors, and then flying off to various destinations around the world.

[B]Again I will ask these questions that so far nobody has commented upon, much less answered:

If infection is so predominantly person-to-person and supposedly masks prevent so much contamination, then why is infection still raging and increasing even in countries that insist upon proper protection (PPF2 +) like France?[/B]

Because a lot of the things you hear on the news are there for our benefit, and I think you will find that most people in other countries (including this one) the young people do not wear masks, and apparently most of the recent outbreaks are young and working age people, hence the lack of deaths but still new infections in the thousands on a daily basis still occurring in the UK.

If infection is predominantly person-to-person why the advice to handle packaging as infrequently as possible; to wash packaging bought into the home; to wash hands so frequently; and why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen?

The chances of catching a virus from packaging is very remote. It has to be handled by an infected person, who will have had to wear gloves or hand sanitise before work, it has to survive for several days of transportation and languishing on a supermarket shelf (fresh stuff probably less time) removing the packaging and then inserting fingers up the nose…It is possible, but unlikely. Trolley handles should always be disinfected, and not just for covid…The last person to have used the trolley could have been infected, so washing hands should be imperative at the earliest opportunity.

How do you think any leader in a Western democracy could get such draconian measures as would be necessary to prevend infection accepted in the face of what then just looked like a few isolated cases of an infection that hadn’t yet then affected any of our own people?
Our own parliament even now disagrees about current restrictions, hence last nights’ vote.

I suspect a bit of ‘Knee jerk reaction’ going on there Zaphod, and it’s making the politicians run around like headless chickens…They are buggered if they do…and buggered if they don’t…It takes a big man to shut down the economy of a successful country like the UK, especially since most of the stuff we use comes from elsewhere, and the people need to know that this is urgent and a national emergency (which it is) so a bit of overkill by the BBC to whip people up into a blind panic and instil fear into the old until we accept anything that they tell us, and end up begging them for the silver bullet that is the vaccine…The Oxford Zeneca vaccine has turned into a 21st century Winston Churchill, A Spitfire that won the war, an Alan Turing invention that decodes the genome sequence of covid…The saviour of the British…Woe betide anyone who dares to question the vaccine.

No apologies needed between friends OGF.
Says he, about to apologize for not including your entire response - but in my defense I was only trying to save space and stop the forum becoming clogged.
:hug:

The first re: air travel I keep saying I agree with, at least as a primary source of transmission and I see no point in revisiting that.

Now to the questions & answers, as briefly as possible:

Infection numbers are stable as is natural when schools returned and more people started being tested - as in all schoolchildren in this instance here in the UK.
Seek and ye shall find, as the old adage goes.
It will take time to see this number decrease because (as with my own son) isolation gradually will reduce the numbers of infected who show no symptoms.

There is no “lack of deaths” elsewhere, it is increasing.
In France for example which has had curfews in place for months as well as compulsory effective face coverings, both infections and deaths are still rising.
Still most infections and deaths are among the elderly.

The chance of contimanation from surfaces might be remote - but it exists, which is why the measures you talk about are in place.
In other words it is still possible.

The last part I agree with; no matter what any government would do it would face objections.
And that was the point I wanted to make: it was impossible to prevent the spread of this virus because by the time our government (or any other) could get the measures it needed to prevent infection entering the country and spreading agreed by parliaments and implemented it would already be too late.

So we’re not really so far apart on our thinking, judging by that.
Some minor technical disagreement mabe but in broad terms our opinions seem quite similar and there’s certainly no major disagreements I can see which need apology from either of us.

What it boils down to is that it’s a bladdy nasty virus that it was always going to be almost impossible to prevent from wreaking havoc on a global scale, ourselves included.

Chopped down to save space.

Wash packaging bought into the home - We have NEVER done that and don’t intend to start now.

Wash hands frequently - We are forever washing our hands in any case so what’s one or two more times extra a day difference going to make?

Why do supermarkets supply cleaning stations to clean trolley & basket handles to prevent cross-infection if it doesn’t happen - Our local M&S supermarket does it for us so I don’t even bother wearing rubber gloves any more. As for Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, I use their facilities to sanitise the trolley handles and my hands before entering the stores.

WELL DONE OGF!!
How did you do it??
Seems we have an agreement! I think?

Donkeyman!
PS. now what was the OP ???

It was obvious something like this would happen without seeing the movie ,the planet is fighting back against this destructive species intent of destroying it.

The planet is an inanimate object Muddy, it doesn’t have feelings, and is incapable of fighting back. It doesn’t care about you, me, or the animals and green stuff. We all have to learn to accept anything it throws at us, it’s not personal, and anyone who thinks that it is their friend is sadly mistaken. Underestimate what it is capable of at your peril. It can not be destroyed by humans, we can just make it more uncomfortable for a while.

Yes, acceptance is the answer OGF !!

 Donkeyman!

“WE”?
Does that mean you actually agree with my post after admitting you were unable to answer the questions I posed, DM?
:mrgreen:

The OP is about deaths being below the 5-year average and the number of deaths said to have been covid-related is bound to have affected that.
How long for, who knows?
Time will tell.

I think we are being hoodwinked a bit Zaphod…:confused:
Because they are adding the figures of deaths from covid over two winters now…And the summer…:shock:
Looking back at ONS figures in the past, deaths are usually quoted for each winter, Annually…unlike the latest figures for covid deaths which are a rolling total…:017:

Not at all Zaphod?
More like refused to answer?
I believe we have agreed all along, but somehow we never could see
it ??

Donkeyman!

Seriously You think Boris is the only one and therefore special? How about Dan Andrews Premier of Victoria he was even commended for doing so by the deputy opposition leader

As did the Premier of NSW over the deaths resulting from the Ruby Princess event.

These people have a lot less to be sorry for than the appalling response of Johnson and his government to covid. but they took responsibility for their actions. It is nothing unusual or something he needs commending for.

The figures are all tosh anyway IMHO.
Averages over five years are pointless too for a number of reasons, not least of which is that the population increases every year and the number of elderly increases every year too.
Well until recently maybe, but it is so far just “maybe”.

The “rolling total” is a farce too because it’s not based on Covid actually being the cause of death.
The whole system is pointless because no two countries count the same way and that makes proper comparison impossible.

So it looks like the world will never ever unify ??
The more of us there are, the more we disagree !!

 Donkeyman!

Good post Zaphod…and I agree…:wink:

We don’t want to unify with the rest of the world Donkeyman.
We are all different, and should accept that. Work together yes, unify…Never. Going global has been nothing but trouble.

Oooer ! Yes, l used the wrong word OGF !!
Sorry about that!!

 Donkeyman!

Deaths still below average !!

Deaths in England and Wales are still below average according to
BBC stop press news !!
So NHS can soon start on their backlog. ??
Going for second jab in a minute !!

Donkeyman!