Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Health & Diet Health & Diet: Chat / Discussions
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Children are given Fluenz which is activated.

The Bergen study is far more recent than Cowling (published 2017) and has a larger sample over a far longer time period of several years. The Bergen study concluded that the vaccine does not compromise the immune response.

The Bergen study concluded that having annual vaccines promotes better immune function than having a one off. It contradicts the results of your study.

Neither study takes into account the reduced immune function of an ageing population. But healthcare workers will be closer in age than children aged 6 to 15.

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You are against conventional antibiotic medicine?

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I’m FOR natural cures, be they antibiotic or anti-viral or anything else, as the first port of call in any situation. Synthetic medicine should be a last resort.

People have largely been brainwashed through media advertising and the usual Campaigns Of Fear into believing that they should immediately reach for Pharma medicines when they get ill. It’s as ridiculous as it is tragic.

People get a cold and for many the instant response is to go out and buy branded or supermarket “cold and flu” capsules and throat lozenges and cough syrups and so on. It’s tragic.
All those things will serve only to prolong their condition and make things worse.

If I get an infection, my FIRST port of call is always one of a range of natural treatments which I know will deal with it. For an eye infection I use drops of Goldenseal in standard eyewash saline. Absolutely no need to go reaching for nasty Chloramphenicol drops from the chemist !

For any exterior infection (like nail/toe nail infections) I use Grapefruit Seed Extract which is hugely powerful, probably the strongest natural antibiotic and anti-viral anti-fungal product you can get. It’s massively useful for an entire range of conditions, 100s of them. Dermatological problems, Excema and the like, fungal foot problems and so on.

It equally has 100s of internal uses. Kills tummy bugs in minutes, stops gastrointestinal ailments like Norovirus in their tracks, kills bouts of Cystitis in women over night and load more.

All f this kind of thing should be pushed and supported by our governments and health services but they are not, because they don’t support the huge profit making business that now runs the show.

There are numerous products of Nature, plants, herbs, spices, fruits and vegetables that have MASSIVE efficacy for 1000s of ailments. There is absolutely no need at all in many cases for anyone to even consider synthetic pills, potions and treatments. Health lies in Nature, not in the Big Pharma big business who only profit from keeping people sick.

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So you do not agree with penicillin?

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Why do you constantly make this sh*t up Annie?

You’ve done this in various threads. Making things up and attributing them to me. Where have I said that I do not agree with penicillin?

I understand antibiotics, how they work, what they are used for.

I understand the difference between cycling to work and catching a bus or driving a car!

This idea that medical antibiotics are the answer to all our woes is ridiculous. There is no doubt at all that some of these medical products are effective in what they do

What I am saying however, is that the FIRST port of call should be Nature, not Big Pharma products. And when I say first port of call I do not mean waiting until someone has gotten to a life threatening state and then trying Nature’s products. I’m saying that their entire life should be focussed on Nature and that their diet should be wide and varied and full of wonderful health boosting products of Nature so that they won’t get sick in the first place. Then when they first start to see symptoms of a condition, they FIRST reach for specific products of Nature known to be effective for that condition and treat themselves accordingly. Only if the condition doesn’t respond should they then look towards synthetic Pharma products.

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I was asking you a simple question. You have not provided an answer. A yes or no will suffice.

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Stating “you do not agree with penicillin” and bunging a question mark after it does not constitute a question.

What am I supposed to be agreeing about it?

That it exists?
That it works?
What it is used for?

Would you like to ask a question that has meaning and some specifity?

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Are you for the medical use of penicillin on humans who are sick?

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They quote all deaths attributed to influenza

Here you are tinkering with statistics and yet claiming that it is not playing with numbers?

Does it occur to you that the rise in numbers for ONS statistics are because of a change in reporting those statistics? It happens all the time.

I remind you with quotes from my previous message

No apples and bananas there, just FLU. As I say just some old bloke with too much time on his hands, with no medical or statistical expertise, sifting through statistics to suit his purpose and then spouting a long winded dose of nonsense.

“Lies, damned lies, and statistics” sums up your so called “Conclusion”. Which is basically, “Unless it agrees with me it is playing with numbers”.

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Sorry Bruce but there appears to be a lot of ‘Estimated’ in your figures…:017:

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The British Medical Journal figures are not estimated but it hardly matters; they are not my figures but the “estimated” figures are from authoritative, peer reviewed, medical research (did you check them?) and even if they were out by a factor of four (which is extremely unlikely) their figures are still nowhere near the numbers that our amateur, non medical, non statistician, non expert plucks from tables because they suit his bonnet bee.

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A baseless lie,

All I have done is copied up the Public Health England statistics for direct Influenza deaths. It is NOT MY DATA.
If you have an issue with the government ONS data then contact them and take it up with them. Ranting at me for posting the info up simply makes you look like a desperate chump.

As for the links you have posted . . . again . . . nothing has changed. Posting it twice does nothing to change the facts as to what these separate sources of data are and represent.

The BMJ link you posted, as OGF rightly states, is a work of estimates, which they freely concede. The ONS data is a work of actuals, from death certificates etc. I don’t contest that one source offers more accurate results than the other. I simply post up the data.

Here’s the statement from YOUR BMJ link:

“The estimates of case fatality rates in our study have wide ranges, which reflect uncertainty about the proportion of people with symptoms who do not seek medical attention. If this proportion is higher than thought, our case fatality rates might be an overestimate. This proportion might have changed over time as public attitudes to the pandemic have evolved. The approach of using an estimate of total case numbers is subject to greater uncertainty than solely counting laboratory confirmed cases”

I see no issues here at all. The ONS data is pure raw numbers of Flu deaths taken from death reports. The BMJ data is a bunch of more complex estimations. The BMJ data may well have the better view on reality, who knows? That’s not the point though.

None of that is the issue at stake here. An issue which you have still failed to take on board.

The issue is whether or not the flu mortality rates are going up or down. If they are going up then the flu vaccine is not doing its job.

In this respect it matters not one jot whether the ONS data for the single year of 2009 is more or less accurate than the BMJ data for 2009. That’s a nice red herring you’ve thrown into the pot.

The issue is whether the TREND, year on year is up or down.

Why haven’t you grabbed your BMJ figures for every year from 2009 to 2017 to assess the trend based on that data?

That would seem to be the required action on your part if you are attempting to prove that mortality rates are not going up surely?

No sorry you are incorrect. They are apples and bananas. One set of data is actual deaths caused by flu taken from death certificates/reports. The other is a set of estimates which aim to provide a more accurate picture. Apples, bananas.

Now off you go and seek out the full BMJ data for 2009 to 2017 and then come back and show us the trend.

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Stupid comments in the extreme. I simply posted up the government Public Health ONS statistics, nothing more, nothing less. Their validity has no bearing on me as a person.

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My answer remains the same Annie.

In the FIRST instance, I am for the use of Natural remedies using products of Nature and prior to any sickness, a life focus on Nature and a diet and lifestyle that is in tune with Nature.

If circumstances have gotten too far advanced, out of control or are an emergency then sure, I am for the regrettable use of things like Penicillin.

As a comparative, if the world needs to rid itself of a small group of evil dictators, then in the first instance I am for specialised smart solutions for the removal of those dictators.

I would not blindly just reach for the nuclear bomb button to wipe out the entire country in order to achieve the same result.

Antibiotics should be a last resort. They destory bacteria indiscriminately, killing both good (wanted) and bad (unwanted) bacteria. They also have complications and side effects.

Nature is and always will be best. It should be our first port of call and our Governments should be supporting and promoting this instead of being Big Pharma puppets.

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Alternative remedies should be offered in the NHS imo but not on prescription, I’d have no problem if they offered me a natural remedy but I have yet to see natural remedy vaccinations that actually work. Homeopathy again I haven’t witnessed that to work.

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The day that a person involved in a car accident calls for their aromatherapist then I will agree.

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Let’s not get confused here Julie.

Natural remedies ARE NOT Homeopathy

The latter is snake oil.

You do not need the NHS to offer you natural remedies. They are available everywhere freely, Nature is free.

What you may of course need is educating on which remedies are appropriate for which conditions.

It would be great if the NHS and GPs offered such education and services, but that’s never going to happen because there are no multi billion dollar profits to be made in telling people the enormous power of things like lemons, garlic and ginger.

Your health is YOUR responsibility. Everyone should have their health as No 1 priority in life and thus everyone should be educating themselves on Natural cures as early as possible in life.

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I must say that you’ve piqued my interest in natural remedies, and when I have time I intend to look things up and find out more about what is good for what!

Do you happen to have any links along those lines?

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We are an outlier in not offering natural remedies alongside conventional meds. Go to most countries in Europe and you will find a different approach where pharmacists are trained in both. SiL’s mum had a copd crisis in france and part of hospital treatment included massaging the soles of her feet with essential oils.

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Accidents are not like illnesses though Bruce, I’m a big fan of some natural remedies, NHS gave my husband steroid creams for years, I put him on coconut oil instead and it worked many many times more effectively than the steroids. I treat my dogs with natural remedies sometimes too, no nasty chemical drops on back of their necks to prevent fleas we just put garlic in their food and no fleas.

Accidents are more mechanical and need more conventional help although a poultice of various herbs will help healing in my experience better than any conventional medicine.