Actually, I ain’t got a clue where you’re going with that argument, perhaps you better spell it out for me 
It sounds as if you’re agreeing with me that those who were stupid enough to get conned into voting for Brexit, Boris Johnson and the Tories and stupid enough to believe the lies they were fed are indeed responsible for the state we’re in today?
But I don’t think that’s what you believe, so better mansplain 
Mad Mary? So rude!
Ass man is his name
Lost causes are his game
They still think Brexit’s great
That’s why our country’s in a state
Ok. Imagine you are someone who’s not really sure about stuff but have been given the task of making a choice. You listen to two groups of people:
Group A comes out with a lacklustre, at times confusing, complacent and tired set of arguments which you cant relate to at all.
Group B comes out with a well thought out, persuasive, plausible, optimistic and seemingly sensible argument which you can identify with in places.
Which group has done it’s job more effectively?
Well obviously Group B. But in the case of Brexit, their “job” was an evil, amoral one. To con people into believing their lies and to vote for something that Group B knew full well would be bad for our country and our people, while personally benefiting Group B
Just because you do a job effectively doesn’t mean the job should have been done or bring you any credit if the job you did effectively was designed to do harm
But that doesn’t excuse the stupidity of the people who fell for the snake oils salesmen’s con tricks
Nor was it the fault of Group A who couldn’t convince them they were being conned
There’s none so blind as those who will not see and the easiest people to pull a long con on are those who want to believe the con artist
Group B exploited the worst of human nature and xenophobia to manipulate and those who fell for it wanted to
But @Maree , I had group A down as the Brexiteers and B as the remainers 
One sees what one wants to see, eh? 
No, one sees the true intent and meaning and ignores the clever dick attempts at obscuring that intent
You shouldn’t blame the ignorant for being guided by a better teacher, even if that teacher has egregious intent.
Edit …now can we agree to differ?
Probably not, I don’t really do that
Obviously you can stop whenever you want 
Of course you should blame them, if others could see through it, why didn’t they?
And the answer is often because it suited them not to because of their own xenophobia and reactionary opinions
Because those who saw through it were too arrogant and lazy to make the effort to help everyone see through it. How many people did you try to keep on the straight and narrow?
(I’ll leave it to you and others to battle out which side is “right” or “wrong”, as per the usual Brexit debates).
@Omah , deepest apologies. This is all completely off topic.
@Azz … Can you split and/or remove the (ir)relevant posts.
Sorry again 
Mmmm, I suspect you are apologising for off topic and asking for the posts to be removed as a tactic to have the last word after “can we agree to differ” didn’t work! Going for the moral high ground? You can be quite controlling, I think
Believe me, I tried to get many, many people to see sense and I’m still trying.
And it wasn’t the arrogance and laziness of the those who saw through the lies that that stopped the others seeing through it, it was their own arrogance and laziness in choosing to believe the lies because it suited their own prejudices
Anyway, yes, off topic for the thread and boring for everyone else, so I’ll leave it for now, split, delete and flag posts as you will, there will be other Brexit threads and other forums
Qui? Moi?
Seriously though, I glanced up at the thread title and, knowing that the op is not usually overly keen on deviations (as is his prerogative, fair enough), thought it appropriate to ask to have it moved.
I’m happy to continue to defeat you in debate, if that’s what floats your boat 
OK, when did you plan on making a start on that? You can’t continue what you haven’t started 
“Glanced at the thread title? “, pull the other one!
Entirely true, I’m afraid.
I’m wondering what Liz Truss’s husband and 2 teenage daughters think about all this ding doing their mother/wife is going through. It must effect them as well.
The eagle has landed !!
Boris touched down at Gatwick this morning . 
Eagle?
Bungle more like.
Bumble bee.
Liz Truss to address nation for last time as PM
‘Huge honour to be prime minister’, Truss says
Stepping up to the podium outside Downing Street, Liz Truss says it was a “huge honour to be prime minister”.
She says her government “acted urgently and decisively on the side of hardworking families and businesses”.
“From my time as prime minister, I am more convinced than ever that we need to be bold,” she says.
The outgoing prime minister trips up slightly as she quotes the Roman philosopher Seneca.
Looking ahead to the future, she says the UK “cannot afford to be a low growth country” and that “we need to take advantage of our Brexit freedoms”.
She adds that the country should continue to support Ukraine.
“I wish Rishi Sunak every success for the country,” she says, thanking those who helped her.
She ends her speech by saying: “I believe in the British people, and I know that brighter days lie ahead.”
Her speech lasts three minutes and six seconds in total - making it a little longer than her 90-second resignation speech.
Truss’s valedictory address was striking for its defiance: her programme for government proved disastrous, but she was insistent that its core aim, turbo charging economic growth, was the right goal at the right time.
Trickle-Down Truss retreats to Planet dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n … 
There’s a difference between being bold and being reckless.
I don’t think Trickle-Down is able to grasp the difference - she’s Dim … 
