Pedestrians versus Cyclists - Who's to Blame?

[Azz]

@AnnieS

There was a large driveway the cyclist could have pulled into if she was thinking straight. It is only just out of shot.

I don’t think that was feasible Annie - at least not from when the pedestrian started waving her arounds/shouting etc.

@AnnieS

On the one hand you can say that Auriol is pushing her, on the other she is going straight into Auriol for reasons unknown to anyone but her.

If a vehicle is coming towards you the natural instinct is to move out of the way - because it can do a lot of damage. It’s also easier for a pedestrian to side-step at short notice than a bike to switch lanes in similar distance. If you saw a bike hurtling towards you I’m sure you’d try to get out of the way

@scot37

So the cyclist could have been going to fast for her capabilities.

I think that is a good topic for a general debate - should there be a minimal level of fitness required to cycle in public areas? (I personally think that is sensible)

@scot37

Not so easy if you have disabilities.

If you look at the picture in post 565 taken seconds before the incident you will see how narrow the pavement is with the lamppost protruding from the fence.

From looking at the vids, I personally think she still could have made some effort to - she not only did the opposite but appears to push/nudge the cyclist off the road as well.

@Anise

but zero sympathy for a 50 year old severely disabled woman who has been unlucky enough to suffer ill health for her entire life.

Think quite a few of us have been sympathetic…

@mart

I do feel sympathy for Mrs Grey’s conditions and can see that life hasn’t treated her favourably. Perhaps that is the reason for her anger, intolerance …or call it what you will. On the other hand, nobody can expect to go unchallenged when involved in somebody’s death.

Agree Mart. I feel sorry for her too, and perhaps this is another good topic for debate - of independence vs supervision for such people out in public…

[Anise]

@mart

To me, that should hold good but I think sympathy will be shown on appeal.

I think more evidence has come to light which will absolve Auriol from any responsibility, or involvement in this cyclists death.

[mart]

@Anise

I think more evidence has come to light which will absolve Auriol from any responsibility, or involvement in this cyclists death.

You could be right but I think any quashing of the original sentence might just be more of a sympathy vote rather than evidence based.

[Anise]

Goodness i need to go now. My husband thinks i have left home!
Nice talking to you all.

[AnnieS]

@Azz

If a vehicle is coming towards you the natural instinct is to move out of the way - because it can do a lot of damage. It’s also easier for a pedestrian to side-step at short notice than a bike to switch lanes in similar distance. If you saw a bike hurtling towards you I’m sure you’d try to get out of the way

I don’t think she is nimble enough to jump out of the way. Her mobility issues seem to be part of the problem.

If it’s my right of way I don’t jump out of the way of a cyclist coming towards me. That’s how the guy got caught up in the dog lead. He tried to weave past me. I’m standing there with a dog sniffing the tree and he has absolutely no need to be on the pavement. I’ve come across some incredibly rude cyclists. I am very considerate to cyclists whenever I am in my car so I expect the same consideration when I am the vulnerable one on the pavement. If they expect a car’s width space on the road then they should give me a cycle’s width space on the pavement.

By the way I did spend a couple of years cycling on roads myself about 20 years back. I was very careful to follow the rules and would have dismounted if approaching pedestrians.

[Maree]

@AnnieS

@Anise

What i find sad here is that so much sympathy for a 77 year old woman, who incidentally appears to have caused her own demise, but zero sympathy for a 50 year old severely disabled woman who has been unlucky enough to suffer ill health for her entire life.

Probably because the victim was far more likeable and Auriol falls outside the traditional stereotype of a woman. Anyone who has worked with or looked after individuals with learning or developmental disorders will recognise certain traits that are typical in Auriol. In the old days she would have lived out her life in an institution.

And that would have been a good thing because the cyclist would still be alive

[Maree]

@AnnieS

@OldGreyFox

If Auriol Grey had a problem with cyclists on her footpath she should have contacted her local council for clarification of the rules surrounding the use of the footpath. She should also have engaged the press and police, and not taken the law into her own hands, she is not a policewoman!

I have a big problem with cyclists going into me on a pavement that I know isn’t a shared path, but I wouldn’t contact the council, press, police. The inconsiderate loser who went into me and became entangled in the dog lead got his comeuppance without any help from the pointless, useless higher-upper powers that be. He thought that he didn’t have to stop even though I was standing in the middle of the pavement staring at him. He got caught in the extendable lead like a fish in a net & that ensured he came to an abrupt stop. He will be more careful next time. He said he didn’t see the dog. One wheel short of a spoke. If Auriol had a dog on a lead and the same happened careering the cyclist into the road whose blinkin’ fault would that be? The dog’s?

Inconsiderate dog owners who think they own the footpath and let their dogs wander away from them on extending leads, causing a trip hazard and blocking the way for other footpath users are one of my pet hates

Dog owners can be a lot more selfish and entitled than cyclists when it comes to hogging footpath and letting their dog foul the walkways

If I’m ever caught waving my arms and swearing it will be at a ruddy dog owner blocking my way with their flaming extending dog lead while it takes a crap

And yes, if I tripped over one, I’d definitely sue
But I wouldn’t try to force them into the path of oncoming traffic

[spitfire]

How many of the contributors to this thread actually ride a bike, and make communication?

[Maree]

@Azz

Snipped

If a vehicle is coming towards you the natural instinct is to move out of the way - because it can do a lot of damage. It’s also easier for a pedestrian to side-step at short notice than a bike to switch lanes in similar distance. If you saw a bike hurtling towards you I’m sure you’d try to get out of the way

Anybody with common sense and proper concern for their own and others safety would but not those who are so entitled and concerned with their “rights” that they think it’s OK to risk causing an accident to prove their point and get their own way

[AnnieS]

@Maree

And that would have been a good thing because the cyclist would still be alive

Perhaps. If the two of them had not met that day she would not have died this way. Successive governments have deemed it better if such people live in the community. Many have ended up on the streets. Many others have had support from agencies facing funding cuts these days. Normal life is very hard for them in a world where even the healthiest and well adjusted individuals are struggling to survive. Anyone with mental health issues struggles to find support these days. Auriol is a vulnerable adult and vulnerable adults aren’t always nice people. They can’t help being the way they are because sometimes their responses to stress are involuntary. It’s different brain wiring.

[AnnieS]

@Maree

Anybody with common sense and proper concern for their own and others safety would but not those who are so entitled and concerned with their “rights” that they think it’s OK to risk causing an accident to prove their point and get their own way

cyclists who illegally travel at breakneck speed on pedestrian pavements are the entitled ones.

[AnnieS]

@Maree

Inconsiderate dog owners who think they own the footpath and let their dogs wander away from them on extending leads, causing a trip hazard and blocking the way for other footpath users are one of my pet hates

Dog owners can be a lot more selfish and entitled than cyclists when it comes to hogging footpath and letting their dog foul the walkways

If I’m ever caught waving my arms and swearing it will be at a ruddy dog owner blocking my way with their flaming extending dog lead while it takes a crap

And yes, if I tripped over one, I’d definitely sue
But I wouldn’t try to force them into the path of oncoming traffic

Yes Maree I remember that you didn’t like dogs in the park wandering into your path when you’re cycling. This didn’t happen to me in the park but just at the end of our road at about 11pm when walking my elderly dog who has arthritis and is now also diagnosed sick with cancer. I fully expected the idiot to stop when he saw me on the narrow pavement. I think he was on drugs. While it’s legal to cycle on a shared path, it’s against the law to cycle on a pavement. Rule 64 of the highway code. NB I never take my dog onto a shared path.

[spitfire]

Sometimes there is no blame, just situations.

[Maree]

@AnnieS

@Maree

Inconsiderate dog owners who think they own the footpath and let their dogs wander away from them on extending leads, causing a trip hazard and blocking the way for other footpath users are one of my pet hates

Dog owners can be a lot more selfish and entitled than cyclists when it comes to hogging footpath and letting their dog foul the walkways

If I’m ever caught waving my arms and swearing it will be at a ruddy dog owner blocking my way with their flaming extending dog lead while it takes a crap

And yes, if I tripped over one, I’d definitely sue
But I wouldn’t try to force them into the path of oncoming traffic

Yes Maree I remember that you didn’t like dogs in the park wandering into your path when you’re cycling. This didn’t happen to me in the park but just at the end of our road at about 11pm when walking my elderly dog who has arthritis and is now also diagnosed sick with cancer. I fully expected the idiot to stop when he saw me on the narrow pavement. I think he was on drugs. While it’s legal to cycle on a shared path, it’s against the law to cycle on a pavement. Rule 64 of the highway code. NB I never take my dog onto a shared path.

I don’t cycle, Annie, perhaps you’re thinking of someone else?

My problem is with dog owners blocking the way for other pedestrians, and also their extended leads trail across the cyclists right of way

We have a cycle/ pedestrian path near me. It’s very clearly marked which side is which
Yet the dog owners obstruct both the cyclists bit and the pedestrian bit

To be fair, I’m not keen on entitled cyclists either!

But in a situation where someone else is behaving badly and dangerously, the adult thing to do is get yourself out of the way and out of danger and not stay put or advance aggressively and risk causing an accident and exacerbating the situation and causing an accident or harm to the other person

[Maree]

@AnnieS

@Maree

Anybody with common sense and proper concern for their own and others safety would but not those who are so entitled and concerned with their “rights” that they think it’s OK to risk causing an accident to prove their point and get their own way

cyclists who illegally travel at breakneck speed on pedestrian pavements are the entitled ones.

They are, but to cause an accident to yourself or them by not getting out of the way just to prove a point about your rights is also entitled and foolish

[Anise]

I think one has to be careful about making assumptions.

Yesterday i mentioned the possibility that the cyclist may have had a drink before getting on the bike - but that was hypothetical, and i did point that out in a later post.

But to say Auriol was refusing to get out of the way to ‘prove a point’ is an assumption and cannot be proved, but far more likely in the circimstances and given her serious disability,she was pysically unable to move out of the way quickly enough.

This is a problem for the physically disabled.

Also to suggest that Auriol should have moved out the way, on a footpath cleary intended for pedestrians only, is a bit daft in my opinion.

[Lincolnshire]

@Anise

But to say Auriol was refusing to get out of the way to ‘prove a point’ is an assumption and cannot be proved,

Yes, we get your view - Auriol was the victim here.
However, the video clearly shows her step and lean in towards the cyclist. Auriol made a decision to be aggressive towards an old lady cycling slowly towards her. So the only assumption here is that absolutely no other movement or stance was possible - which seems highly unlikely.
If you are comfortable being hypothetical about the cyclist having drunk alcohol, then I’m happy being hypothetical that Auriol consciously decided to pick on someone older, smaller and more frail than she. Which is a neat description of bullying.

[Anise]

Actually the video isn’t clear at all, and how anyone can make a definite decision based on a video, i assume taken from CCTV footage which lasts literally seconds, is vitrually impossible without taking into account what led up to the incident, the behaviour of the cyclist, which from other info provided appears she was not in control of her bicycle, and therefore behaving in an intimidating manner towards pedestrians going about their business,

In this instance the pedestrian happened to be a disabled frail and weak person.

Hypothesize and assume all you like , but also remember that others on here will be doing the same so keep it fair please.

[OldGreyFox]

I think a very good case has been made for the defence, and the prosecution by the 658 posts submitted by members of the forum. However, I would like to comment on something that has only previously been mentioned by Lincs, and that is the way the media and those representing Auriol Grey on the forum.
Auriol Grey has been turned into the victim, although it was Celia Ward who lay dead on the tarmac.
The media have a habit of making us aware of the victims life, explaining about their disabilities and struggles with life. We know how disabled Auriol was, and we know that her journey was an innocent shopping trip. But what about Celia Grey? Where was she going on that fateful day? Could she have been rushing to care for an elderly relative who had summoned her after a fall in her home? Did she use her bike as her form of transport after being a keen cyclist all of her adult life, winning medals for her country at various sporting events? Had she left her disabled child at home alone while she rushed to assist the elderly relative?
Yes! I know it’s all hypothetical and conjecture, but why haven’t we been told about Celia’s life? Who was Celia? I think it is only right that we celebrate the life of the person castigated for her own death…Just because she felt safer riding on the pavement.

[MargaretF]

I agree OGF, we know little about the cyclist except that her death was caused due to the eccentric behaviour of one person. There is a bereaved family to consider too. Also, what about the car driver? I can’t imagine trying to deal with being responsible for another person’s death, even though it couldn’t have been avoided.