Brexit fun and games

Some wag recently wrote “Nobody voted “remain”, we voted for a better brexit at a better time when things could be worked out soberly, not a fumbled job designed to save Cameron’s skin.”
That is a sentence full of dubious claims.
First, many voted remain, really almost half who voted. Not nobody.
Slightly more did vote leave. True. But the notion that everyone voted for the same “better Brexit” is patently false. It was very unclear what leave meant and what the future relationship with the EU would be. Largely, at the time, it was all ‘a better deal’ or ‘Canada plus plus’ or ‘Norway plus’. There was zero definition of what a vote for leave meant in practical terms.
Lastly, the failure that was Cameron (and on pretty much every measure he was a failure) was not to save his skin. He shirked his responsibility and buggered off. No skin saving then. Even though flagellation was clearly a right punishment for his dumbly structured referendum.
So not one word of your sentence is correct. Soz.

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Almost half the voters voted Remain

I think Cameron did the decent thing in leaving and not letting himself be part of enabling the disaster that is Brexit

He knew it was a big mistake and would harm our country and our people and chose not to be involved in letting it happen

Other politicians, like Johnson and May also knew it was mistake but went along with it to further their careers

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I have said it before but in my opinion such an important move should have required a bigger majority - for example I think in the USA you need 75% majority to impeach a President. I am not saying it needed 75% but it certainly needed more than 1 or 2%.

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Hi

Just my thoughts.

It has happened, we are out, we are not going to be rejoining any time soon, both major parties are against rejoining and we certainly would not be rejoining on the same terms and conditions we had when we left, we would be paying full wack, no rebate and having to commit to joining the Euro.

We cannot turn back the clock, we need to stop fighting each and work together to make the best of things.

We are just wasting time and energy otherwise.

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I agree with “some wag”. We, my family & friends, voted Remain because the referendum was called by the wrong person, for the wrong reasons, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

Cameron secured himself a second term as PM on a promise of a referendum. It backfired for him of course, but it did give him another year in Downing Street.

If the ballot paper offered a third option, I wouldn’t have voted remain:

  1. Maybe brexit sometime in the future after a level-headed, cross-party group of politicians & businessman sit down and discuss the best way to do it.
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Yes the UK is out, even the parts that did not want out, and yes the clock only goes in one direction. And rejoining is a fantasy for the future. These things are true.
But my problem is with the ‘stop arguing and make the best of it’ line of thinking. That would only be acceptable if those who voted out, and continue to support Brexit in a very fixed way, are willing to stop for a second and realistically look at how things are working after Brexit. Is it helping our country be successful? Is it impeding exports? Is it impeding much needed workers from doing key jobs in care home or on farms? Is it adding to the cost of living? This current Tory government (even after Johnson) is so wedded to the fixed idea that Brexit is done and working great that they will not allow any challenge to the concept. Until, as a country, we are willing to look at the good and bad of Brexit with an open but critical eye then we cannot make the best of it.

I voted for Brexit, because that is what I wanted ! The idea of becoming a new USA, where all states have different laws but will eventually become one country,seems ludicrous to me.
Eventually we would end up with one leader for all, and with such a large country I believe that we would go the same way as the USA…and I would hate that.
Brexit voters accept that we will have ro expect some changes to life, but those who wanted to remain seem to think that Brexit causes ALL the problems, in the hope that the decision will be changed.
God help us if it ever happens , because the other members will vote against us on everything.

If we can’t do what Swimmy said then there is no hope of being part of a Europe , where it isn’t necessary to be a member of the EU. Look at all the problems with boats of Illegal Immigrants coming from France and ask "why didn’t all the other countries they traveled through arrest them to check that they were genuine refugees"
I dont blame France, I blame the EU who appear to have no good means of preventing illegal immigrants crossing their borders without a passport, surely it is only residents of the EU that are allowed ro travel without passports…and if not why was there such a problem with ferries from Dover. Most immigrants came overland & it seems that Britain was the last place they could go to. Would being a member of the EU have prevented so many, seeing as they couldn’t prevent them moving through their other member countries, or was it that , if they came across the sea they were unlikely to return!

This argument that the EU is bad because of immigrants who attempt to get into the UK are not being stopped before the channel is a strange one. For that to have any substance it would need to also true that if the EU did not exist at all, and these immigrants were simply crossing different countries from Greece or Italy to Calais, then this immigration would stop. It would not. The borders across individual countries would be porous enough for people to still get to Calais. Then I presume you would blame the individual countries. You are blaming the EU because it exists not because it is contributing to the immigration problem.
Plus we probably also need to look at the numbers of immigrants each country is taking. Did Germany not take 1 million Syrian refugees? I do not recall the UK doing anything like that. And I seem to recall that Germany is in the EU.

You see, I think exactly the opposite :rofl:

It’s wasting time and energy to work to wards enabling Brexit, which can only ever make our country and our people worse off.:woman_shrugging:

That time and energy is better used campaigning for rejoin and also fighting against the Brexiter ideas and the things they try to impose :muscle:t4:

True, we’ll never get the same terms back, the Brexiters through those away for us :rage:

But we’d be better off rejoining on reduced conditions and staying out :white_check_mark:

And I think it’s important to keep fighting the attitudes of some people who voted Brexit. I’ve no wish to work together with Brexiters :boxing_glove::rofl:

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I think you will see that I said all the other countries ( not EU countries). I also remember Germany taking in a large number of immigrants to increase their number or workers. Sadly many didn’t speak the same language or had training in the jobs, but Merkel was trying to get a job with the UN at the time so maybe her decision to accept them was not to satisfy their need for workers!
If the EU had not been so relaxed about passport control there should have been less that got through & I recall that some countries,where they tried to get through, had wire barriers to prevent them!
Your arguments don’t hold up because the UK accepted many immigrants, but only from reliable sources like the Syrian refugee camps.
I am blaming the EU, and any other European country, because their border controls were not strong enough to check passports & many even arrived on trains so gates could have been closed, which would be much easier than trying to trap small rubber boats that can land on any part of British shores at any time.
By the way, did you know that many German people actually moved to other parts of Europe, because of the appalling behavior of the immigrants they took in.
Brexit happened, and we all need to live with the good and bad bits, so I have no intention of debating further on this matter!

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If we look at the statistics on who voted Remain versus who voted leave (the stats are still available to be searched) we could note that a very large percentage of the Remain Voters, in the UK, lived in, or very close to our very big Cities.

So, if the Rural voter was, largely, the one in the majority, the reasons for our decisions might become more apparent.

For future reference, we should ask ourselves why the city voters needed to remain.

EU referendum: The result in maps and charts - BBC News

The stats are interesting and the split was not just city versus rural. It was also old versus young (old voting leave), and also tertiary education versus not (educated voting remain), and income driven (poor voted leave). Of course these are majority percentages so the opposite will be true but in minority percentages. But it does imply that older rural dwelling, with little education achievement and on low income are most likely to have voted leave. While young, degree educated with a good job working in a city would have been more likely to vote remain. Interesting, no? One wonders if young, better educated and with a well paid job saw flaws in the leave campaign claims?

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Yes, I think that was definitely part of it.

It must have been obvious to anyone who truly analysed it that we’d be worse off.

And the educated hopefully better placed to see through the snake oil salesman spiel, lies and false promises

But Brexit was a populist vote, not based on logic.

It appealed to feelings and the xenophobes and nationalists and the gut reaction to not wanting to be told what to do by other countries.

Plus the Brexit campaign successfully blamed the EU for a lot of things that were the fault of our own successive governments, like the North South divide, asylum seekers etc

And exploited people’s general discontent with the state of the country and the inequalities by promising Brexit could solve them

All populist lies fed to the gullible

I think old people voted Brexit because they look back on the past with rose tinted glasses and because they are jealous of the young and wanted to put them in their place

City dwellers tend to be less xenophobic and more aware, plus not to have suffered the inequalities of north/south, city/rural divides

I think London should have declared independence, thrown up a big wall around itself, stayed in the EU and left the Brexiters to rot! :rofl:

@strathmore , Then it is a pity that the , uneducated/ old/ low achieiving/
rural dwellers out numbers the high ncome/ highly educated elites
then isnt it ??
Doesnt that show that the majority of the population were highly
dissatisfied with the way things were going at that time , after forty years
of " enjoying the benefits " of membership ?? ( Loss of fishing industry/
Large & growing trade deficit with EU/ ) not to mention large infrastructure
projects given to EU companies !!
BTW, Remainers were given a second opportunity to reverse the referendum
result 2 yrs later when Boris got his ovewhelming majority in the GE ??
Remainers were very quiet after that eh! ( TILL NOW?)
FINI !!

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Populist is what the Lefty - Liberal - Remainers call democracy when they don’t get the results they want

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WHO is responsible for reviving the brexit thread ??
And WHY ??
Just askin !!:roll_eyes::roll_eyes:

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Yes, that really is a pity, to leave the fate of the country in their hands and allowing them ruining all our futures :rage:

Fini? Not a chance, we are just getting started and we will put this right :muscle:t4::rofl:

nous reviendrons! :eu: :eu::eu::eu::eu::uk:

Hi

Well I am elderly , that is true.

I am also well educated, to Post Grad level.

I was also well paid whilst working and have a very good pension.

I also have years of experience with dealing with the EU.

You premise is wrong.

I, and others who worked, or still work in Government, voted leave, not because we are idiotic dinosaurs, but rather because we saw the dangers of staying in.

This is particularly important to note as to how other EU Countries can simply break the rules without any response from others.

The Uk takes in 20,000 refugees a year direct from the Refugee Camps, all vetted before they arrive here and no issue at all to us, they are a benefit.

Germany however, just decided to take in allcomers, flooded the Borders and imported serious trouble.

They could afford to, they had a low paid labour shortage and loads of spare cash as they did not bother to pay their share of NATO.

Yes, they took in a million, but did not check them, they were not all Syrian, just claimed they were, then kicked out 200,000 of them into the other EU Countries, the problem makers, with absolutely no regard for others.

I cannot think of a better reason for Brexit.

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Not me, promise! :rofl:

But it’s good to revive it I think :woman_shrugging:

It’s a bad decision that is the backdrop to, and the cause of, most of our problems today so it shouldn’t be allowed to slip into the background and become the accepted status quo

Plus we need to remember whose fault it is and make sure the people who campaigned for it, voted for it and pushed it through don’t get to wriggle out of the blame for what they’ve done to us :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:

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They didn’t fall for all that tosh fed by the peetaking career politicians in Westminster.

Boris was a remainer till last minute he saw that backing brexit gave him fast track to No.10