I must admit that I can by no means predict wether K.Starmer might be trusted in the future. However, speaking of “trust” when the conservatives have blatantly lied about “prospering mightily”, “never leaving the SM or the CU”, “no visa”, “cheaper clothes + food”, “no problem with second homes in the EU” is, well, ahm, how can I put it, somewhat the least thing the electorate should worry about IMHO.
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Sorry for being so curious. Which are the growing benefits. Please, please, please name a few (that is what this thread is about). My next question then will be about how they are growing.
I am asking this favour because I have been watching the Brexit saga since the beginning, trying to figure out, why the UK voted out.
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No idea. I hope we will be open to any type of deal that both sides can agree on. If that’s not possible due to bad feeling or for whatever reason, then we are not sunk because we can look elsewhere. I’m not bothered by being out of the EU but I would still like to see friendliness and cooperation at some point in the future.
Brexit? Well I think it kind of worked when we were in the EU and it kind of works now we are out. Life can go on without hand-wringing and endless discussion over the break-up if you choose to let it.
The supermarkets and shops still have a plentiful supply of food. True, prices have gone up but that looks to be a word-wide problem. I don’t want to travel around the World as much as others, although my family who live in Spain and Germany are still managing to visit here as much as ever.
Went shopping yesterday morning: - Brexit difference 0
Went for dental attention in the afternoon: Brexit difference 0
I will cycle to the allotment on today: Brexit difference 0
We might go out and enjoy the nice weather on Wednesday: Brexit difference 0
Thursday is hospital day: Brexit difference 0
The list could go on but the examples above give the general idea.
I suppose it’s OK to discuss matters past the 2000+ post mark out of interest, or as a way of venting feelings. It’s what forums are all about …but all the views given will never will make anyone change their minds from the position they had from the start. I have been following the thread wondering how many points can be made for and against. I don’t know whether to admire or sigh at the ability to persist with it. 
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What actually happened was that a very badly run remain campaign ended up with idiots like Osborne making such doom laden predictions. He and Cameron has successfully applied the project fear approach in the Scottish independence referendum two years earlier. They tried to same and as the polling narrowed their claims got wilder and wilder. So not all people who supporter remaining went about claiming massive unemployment.
Remain supporters did predict a negative hit to exports, to GDP and a rise in prices.
We have been betrayed by Sunak and Johnson completely. We have left the EU in all but name, still paying over £20 billion to the EU since we left and another £13 billion to pay by 2016. Ireland has been left behind, we are bound to the EU on tax regulations for VAT, still in the common fisheries policy, tied to EU net zero obligations and worst of all are unable to be a direct economic competitor to the EU which is binding the UK to the EU rule through the Windsor Framework.
Who needs a labour government, when under the Conservatives we have the highest taxes for 70 years, the NHS, railways, teachers and the fire brigade on strike and what is effectively open borders with mass immigration, both legal and illegal.
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For me, the biggest growing benefits are that the more trade deals we sign with countries outside the EU another nail goes in the coffin for rejoining it.
The Eurozone is pretty much bankrupt now and run out of other peoples money. Only continued perpetual QE can save it in the short term, sooner or later the debt needs to be paid and interest rates are only going one way at the moment. To illustrate just how bad things have become in the last 15 years or so, the USA and the Eurozone in 2008 had almost identical GDP at current prices. The Eurozone = $14.2 Trillion and the USA = $14.8 Trillion. Roll forward 15 years and the Eurozone GDP now is around £15 Trillion while the USA GDP has increased to $27 Trillion. In the space of 15 years and even though an extra 5 countries have joined the EU, the Eurozone is now only a staggering 55% of the size of the USA economy.
Let that sink in.
When you drive around Europe their roads are much better than ours so they can’t be doing that bad ,
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Hi
There are various ways of measuring Economic Success.
I am not an expert on it by any means, my son however is reasonably good.
I am obviously biased. however he is working abroad, on a Gold Visa, in the financial sector.
There are a number of ways of measuring the financial success of a country or an economic region.
Gross GDP can be very misleading, there is no point in earning a lot if it all goes on repaying debt.
The comparisons between the USA, EU and UK are very different if gross GDP to Debt are used.
There are other things to take into account as Muddy says.
In the EU trains run on time, there are more doctors and hospital beds, far lower waiting lists and much higher pensions.
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The trains don’t cost an arm and a leg either .
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It’s not a question of hand-wringing and endless discussion for me or changing anyone’s mind
It’s about never forgetting the vile thing done and letting the matter drop
Because that would let those who voted and campaigned for Brexit wriggle out of the blame for the harm they have done to our country, me and my family and our reputation because of their xenophobic, arrogant, ignorant, selfish, rose tinted back to the 1950s behaviour
And would enable Brexit, rather than working against it towards putting the wrong right and getting back in
Just because the trivia of your life continues pretty much as normal, it doesn’t mean a great wrong wasn’t committed, nor that the quality of your life isn’t going to deteriorate
I’m sure after the Second World War the German people could continue to live much as you describe
Or that peoples hopes and opportunities and futures aren’t diminished Just because you are content with little it doesn’t mean they should be condemned to it too
Of course we have less variety of food in the shops and trade deals will mean it will be imported from thousands of miles away with no consideration of the environment, food standards, workers rights or animal welfare
And hospitals are understaffed because of Brexit
I don’t contribute to these threads to convince anyone, it’s to keep my anger up
So that I don’t let the undemocratic decision that dragged us out of the EU be forgotten, who was responsible or the shame it brought on our country internationally for betraying our commitments
Because that anger keeps me working against and speaking out against Brexit and the Brexiteers and helping to pave the way for us to get back in
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Do we not all love selectively picking on specific data points to make our argument look good? I love it. Here are my specific data points:
In 2016 the GDP numbers were:
US $18.7 trillion; EU (excl UK) $11.2 trillion; UK $2.7 trillion
In 2022 the numbers were
US $25 trillion; EU (excl UK of course) $16 trillion; UK $3 trillion
Growth over this interesting Brexit & pandemic period:
US 33%; EU (excl UK) 42%; UK 11%
Now that is interesting and might lead to very different conclusions. Especially when you also consider debt vs GDP for the same places
US 129%; EU 91%; UK 100%.
I feel some of the conclusions you are arrive at are, how to say this politely, misleading.
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I’ve thought for a while now that the direction of travel for the UK’s relations with the EU is going back towards more cooperation and more alignment. The pro-Brexit voices will be very loud on this not happening, but they are loud because this movement to improve relations and patch up the damage done is definitely underway. And its not desperation to note this.
Whether it eventually leads to re-cutting the trade agreement or more, lets see.
I’m not against co-operation with the EU just so long as it is mutually beneficial for both parties. I just don’t want our country to be tied to what is becoming an undemocratic ‘federal state’ in the same way it was before Brexit. We need to be free to trade and make our own decisions (good and bad!) without being hog-tied to the EU. As has been said before, on this thread, rejoining would be a disaster for our country.
Btw I seem to remember the remainers telling us that we would be out of the Horizon project for good … another doom-laden lie or a grasping at straws to change people’s minds?
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That is some “Hotel California” thing then is it not? Like “you can check out any time but you can never leave”.
No, honestly, the divorce bill (MEP salaries and other things) were negotiated with the UK. The UK has left. You have taken back control.
Rejoining the “Horizon” framework must hurt you I am sure. However, the UK is free now.
Ok, not I get it: the benefit of being “out” is that it mitigates the possibility of being “in” ageain. Ok, and second the EU is finished and bankrupt and all those things.
Thank you for telling me your view of all that. 
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Already done and finished, the UK has all that. I guess that there is no need for any restart of negotiations.
What if your doctor tells you that it is perfectly safe to remove your right arm, anything will be like before. You will keep your second home in France, no problem. Only a fool would leave the single market. Clothes will be cheaper, food also.
These things have been said in public, on TV, right in YOUR face. Blatant lies, no consequences what so ever. That is something we do not have in Germany, that blatant audacity to lie people into their face on such an important issue like BREXIT.
That leaves me speechless…
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I know that this is unusual but could you please name that law that prevented the UK from building more homes? I am curious as a I would like to find that legal text on the EUs website (which seems to be pretty complete with all information). Thank you in advance.
As the UK usually was one of the major EU rule makers, it should be named “UK-AND-EU-RULES” instead of “EU rules” I think.
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I have let it sink in and I must admit that now in the EU we have more food banks than McDonald restaurants, most people must decide between heat and eat, all Hotels are full of “illegal immigrants”, processing asylum claims takes ages (>3years), food quality has plummeted as the EU does not check on the borders.
I could go on…
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